jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

Etops Islands

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:32 pm

I was reading about an a/c that landed at Midway Atoll and then, thinking about ETOPS Airstrips that are maintained purely or mainly for ETOPS purposes.

Are there tiny islands in the middle of nowhere with a skeleton staff just waiting for an emergency or do these strips serve other purposes and are fairly well populated?

Any pics available? the whole scenario intrigues me!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6039
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: Etops Islands

Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:36 pm

I don't fly any polar routes, but apparently there are airfields up there designated for emergency only, because apart from a runway, there is little else there. Not even sure what staff they have. I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting Jafa39 (Thread starter):
Are there tiny islands in the middle of nowhere with a skeleton staff just waiting for an emergency or do these strips serve other purposes and are fairly well populated?

No, there are no 'ETOPS Islands'. The routes that airlines set up are done so that they fly within the ETOPS range of the aircraft, and still take the most direcet route. With ETOPS there really isn't any place on the earth they can't go.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I don't fly any polar routes, but apparently there are airfields up there designated for emergency only, because apart from a runway, there is little else there. Not even sure what staff they have. I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!

Hey dude, on the polar routes, most of the airfields used are actually active airports, and are not kept open for ETOPS purposes. They are designated for emergency only simply because they're...well...shite little places. In Siberia, quite a few ex-military and civilian airfields are there to support the local population (because there are no roads), or for mining and gas production use. We can use those airports for emergencies (and the runways up there are quite long for some of them), but that's like playing Russian roulette. Pardon the pun.

This holds true for Northern Canada, Norway, Greenland and Alaska also. Either the airport infrastructure is insufficient, or the runway lengths are not quite adequate. So they are designated for emergencies only (the plane is on fire), and not for other types of diversion (we ran out of cappucino).

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
No, there are no 'ETOPS Islands'. The routes that airlines set up are done so that they fly within the ETOPS range of the aircraft, and still take the most direcet route. With ETOPS there really isn't any place on the earth they can't go.

However, it has been said that places like Midway, for example, are partly funded by Boeing to keep them open so that they can allow transpacific ETOPS flights to continue, even as the U.S. Navy have deemed them to be surplus to requirements. But that was in the days of 180min ETOPS certifications. I am not sure with the newest ETOPS certs whether or not they are required anymore.
 
julesmusician
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:25 am

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:04 am

Here is a nice little web site to show where your ETOPS range will take you.

http://gc.kls2.com/
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 3):
not for other types of diversion (we ran out of cappucino).

That would be known as an "Auckland Emergency" down here!  Smile

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 3):
However, it has been said that places like Midway, for example, are partly funded by Boeing to keep them open

Yeah, I was wondering about that.
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
julesmusician
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:25 am

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:17 am

I was reading the FAA requirements for diversion airports on ETOPS rules. It is certain what you must require and as said "if you land at an airfield and need to evacuate the aircraft, and then find there is no where for 200 + passengers to go in -20c in the snow, then this would not be a suitable diversion airfield  Smile"
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
No, there are no 'ETOPS Islands'.

That's just not true. There are. Midway is one of them. There are others funded by various governments to provide for emergency.

N
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:09 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
That's just not true. There are. Midway is one of them. There are others funded by various governments to provide for emergency.

Yea, OK... maybe back in 1933, but not now.. there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters. Manufatures do not pay to keep island set up as safett stop overs as they did in the 1930's

[Edited 2005-12-19 03:16:07]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Etops Islands

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:15 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
Manufatures do not pay to keep island set up as safett stop overs as they did in the 1930's

It is in literature, Boeing has done so, as recently as the 90's, although I have no updates on the matter.

Please don't ask me to look it up for you. If you are really interested, please do a google search yourself.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters

And this isn't true either. Not all aircraft are certified with the high ETOPS limits you speak of. However, you can check that yourself also.
 
qxeguy
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:53 am

RE: Etops Islands

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!

What is "not quite an island"?
I fly boxes. Boxes don't bitch. Boxes don't barf. Boxes don't get drunk and do a number 2 on the beverage cart.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Etops Islands

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting Qxeguy (Reply 10):
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!

What is "not quite an island"?

I think he means places in the middle of Siberia and so forth. While not islands, their isolation makes them equivalent.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Etops Islands

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:12 am

Maybe that is where the people are on the show 'Lost'.. ETOPS Island...!! A scary place were a mad scientist lives and terrorizes all that land on the island..? Yea, that's it
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
julesmusician
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:25 am

RE: Etops Islands

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:28 am

Just thought this was of interest to the thread:

FRENCH PASSENGER JET MAKES EMERGENCY STOP IN SIBERIA
Received Saturday, 17 December 2005 19:50:00 GMT
MOSCOW, Dec 17 (AFP) - An Air France Boeing 777 made an emergency landing at Irkutsk in Siberia Saturday when one of its two engines broke down on a flight from Seoul to Paris, airport authorities said.
An Air France spokesman said the plane carried 246 passengers and 17 crew, revising the number of passengers earlier given by Russian authorities who said the passengers were taken to hotels in Irkutsk to await the arrival of a back-up plane on Sunday.
Air France said the plane had landed normally. "It was re-routed for technical reasons," said the company in Paris, confirming that one engine had broken down.
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
timz
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Etops Islands

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters.

By "ETOPS parameters" you mean ETOPS 330?
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Etops Islands

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters.

By "ETOPS parameters" you mean ETOPS 330?

If that is the case, there are plenty of places left outside ETOPS range. ETOPS 330 is hardly something every ETOPS plane and operator can handle, or would want to.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: speedygonzales, yblaser and 12 guests