julesmusician
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Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:50 am

Can any engineers shed light on how they prevent counterfeit items for aircraft coming into the chain? What preventable measures are in place to prevent this, and is it considered a large problem amongst engineers?

J
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
Matt72033
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:00 am

i had an old lecturer who went up to a tyre manufacturer at one point, they had an old brake unit from an aircraft lying around, he asked if he could have it as a display example for our college! they agreed but before they would let him take it, they insisted on taking an angle grinder to it to make sure it didnt wind up back on an aircraft!

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
Can any engineers shed light on how they prevent counterfeit items for aircraft coming into the chain? What preventable measures are in place to prevent this, and is it considered a large problem amongst engineers?

its more of a storkeepers job!

counterfeit parts is a huge business!!
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 1):
counterfeit parts is a huge business!!

I read a magazine article several years ago that quoted a former drug dealer saying that fake A/C parts was more lucrative than drugs, and less risk.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 2):
read a magazine article several years ago that quoted a former drug dealer saying that fake A/C parts was more lucrative than drugs, and less risk.

i can well believe it!
when you consider the amount aircraft spares are woth you can see why!
an oven alone is worth £12,000
 
Tod
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:00 am

People have been caught re-selling parts purchased from Boeing's surplus store in Kent, Washington.

Because of these morons, they will no longer sell full sheets of honeycomb panels. That really hurt the guys that were using it for non-av applications.

They also have really gone overboard on obliterating part numbers recently. I bought 20 feet of seattrack extrusion and every few feet someone removed the part number by grinding at least .05 deep.

Tod
 
Matt72033
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 4):
People have been caught re-selling parts purchased from Boeing's surplus store in Kent, Washington

what kind of stuff can you buy here Tod?
 
miamiair
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:28 am

Check this out:

http://www.asy.faa.gov/safety_products/unapprovedparts.htm

Here in the US they are called suspected un-approved parts. There have been changes that require you to get documentation (traceability) of the part from when it was made or purchased from an approved source.

There are bogus parts that are made that are substandard and are genuine dangers to aviation safety.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Dougloid
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:08 am

As a matter of fact, I published an article on this subject in the Journal of Airl Law and Commerce back in 1996 when I was in my last year of law school. Send me an email and I'll send you a pdf. It's a hair raising story.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
PurdueAv2003
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:56 am

Most airlines get a report listing recently discovered unapproved parts vendors. The materials department also works closely with QA and engineering to insure purchased parts meet FAA and manufacturer requirements, especially with PMA parts.
Ptu = Ftu X Anet (not to be confused with a.net)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:38 pm

The Stores In Charge gets the Approved parts thru an Approved Vendor,accompanied by proper Documentation.Every Rotable part replaced is well documentated & can be history traced if needed.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 5):
Quoting Tod (Reply 4):
People have been caught re-selling parts purchased from Boeing's surplus store in Kent, Washington

what kind of stuff can you buy here Tod?

It's hit and miss. The stuff changes all the time because it's what Boeing is getting rid of and not as good as it was 10 - 20 years ago.

Obsolete, surplus or damaged materials
Misc fasteners and other hardware
Computers
Office funiture
Dull drill bits
Misc aluminum extrusions (not much any more, some retired guys know when the good stuff arrives)
Flight cases
Aircraft seats (haven't seen any in a long time though)
Old tooling
Just plain junk

It can be all of the above and much more or nothing but garbage.

Tod
 
Matt72033
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:10 am

sounds interesting! is kent near everit?
might be worth a visit when i make it out there one day!
 
Tod
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
is kent near everit?

Boeing Surplus is on the south side of Kent and is about 15 (just guessing) miles SE of SEA and about (guessing again) 60 miles south of Everett.

Tod
 
julesmusician
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Pre

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:39 am

African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
777wt
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
As a matter of fact, I published an article on this subject in the Journal of Airl Law and Commerce back in 1996 when I was in my last year of law school. Send me an email and I'll send you a pdf. It's a hair raising story.

I tried to email you but in your profile the email address is withheld. Please email the pdf to Z28Shark69@aol.com
Interesting stuff i bet.
 
Tod
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:19 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 14):
your profile the email address is withheld

and please send a copy to:

tod701@aol.com

thanks,
Tod
 
tbanger
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:57 pm

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
Can any engineers shed light on how they prevent counterfeit items for aircraft coming into the chain? What preventable measures are in place to prevent this, and is it considered a large problem amongst engineers?

Simple...airlines employ outstanding Purchasing Officers like me to make sure this stuff doesn't creep in. If I am buying surplus spares, I ask for a faxed copy of the release first. If I am not happy with it, I don't buy it.

Word of mouth is the fastest way for news to travel. If an airline or supplier find they got ripped or suspect a place of being dodgy, they tell everyone they know. Soon the dodgy broker is lining up in the dole queue.

Don't buy spares from Ebay. Only use respected / known dealers.

We (airlines) have extensive quality measures in place to prevent this sort of thing occuring. With our company, the supplier must first be an approved vendor. If they are an MRO (Maintenance Repair Organisation) than they need to provide there FAA/JAA or equivalent approval certificate. They must also provide us with their capabilities list....part number specific. IE the list cant say "O/H Saab main wheels" It must say 5010488 or 5010488-2" etc.

If they are a spare parts vendor, they must also supply us with the equivalent to a FAA or JAA Certificate of Approval. They can supply us with any part they wish, provided they supply us with a correctly signed and dated Certificate of Conformance or for lifed and serialised components a FAA 8130-3 or JAA form 1 or equivalent must be supplied.

For instance. I will not accept a part 121 trace for a serialised or lifed component. If I don't get an 8130-3 or equiv, then I don't buy it.

Some of my suppliers part out aircraft for a living. I will not accept a removal component tag for any item removed. My suppliers know, that they must provide me with a "Part Removal Authorisation Form". This form is signed, dated and also gives the rego and msn number of the aircraft. It has the removal engineers / mechanics license number on it.

When I find a new supplier, I must submit a form to our Quality Assurance Manager requesting approval of a new supplier. He will then chase the Supplier up for their applicable approvals. Once he is satisfied that the supplier meets our guidelines, he then notifies me that all is good to go. I then set the supplier up as an "Approved Vendor". Every 12 months, the QA manager will do an audit on our "Approved Vendor" list to ensure that the suppier is meeting the guidelines set out in the Company Procedures Manual.

When our stores personnel receive a part, they check the paperwork against the goods to ensure that there are no discrepancies. Sometimes a supplier may send a part and say that it is an alternate part number to that which was ordered. If this is the case, then we follow another set of procedures. Basically, any alternate supplied without the correct FAA-PMA documents will be rejected and the part will be returned for credit. If it is recognised in the applicable IPC, then we will accept it as an alternate based on the IPC reference.

Without quoting our entire procedures manual, extensive measures are in place to prevent these parts creeping in. The system isn't idiot proof, but works o.k.

If I was ever caught buying known bogus spares, then not only would I loose my job, but I would kiss goodbye to any career in the avaition industry. As I mentioned above...word of mouth travels very fast. One of my suppliers said to me earlier this week, after I tipped him off about a company that ripped me off a few years ago..."This industry is self policing....police-ing." What almost turned out a multi-hundreds of thousands deal over the next 2 years turned into a dead rubber all because he pulled a shonky on me 5 years ago. What goes around comes around.

PMA's were mentioned above. PMA's are parts manufactured under a special FAA approval. Parts Manufacture Approval. To obtain this approval, you must supply the FAA with the exact specs of the part that you wish to copy and the exact specs of the part you wish to fabricate. 99% of the time, the PMA part is of better quality to the OEM part. 100% of the time, the PMA part is somewhat cheaper.

My company will not accept a PMA part as an alternate, unless the Aircraft Manufacture is aware of the PMA and issues a "No Technical Objection" for the use of the PMA part.

I hope I haven't rambled on too much.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:17 pm

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):
Don't buy spares from Ebay. Only use respected / known dealers

Do people purchase Items for Aircraft use from Ebay.

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):

Very Well Illustrated.I found it very Informative.Appreciate your sharing details.
Thanks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Matt72033
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:09 pm

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):
Simple...airlines employ outstanding Purchasing Officers like me to make sure this stuff doesn't creep in

modest too eh!?!?  Wink
 
Tod
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):
My company will not accept a PMA part as an alternate, unless the Aircraft Manufacture is aware of the PMA and issues a "No Technical Objection" for the use of the PMA part.

Thank you. By requesting a NTO you have given the original manufacturer visibility that someone is manufacturing parts using their data. Sometimes this propriatary data has not been legitimately obtained.

FAA 8130-3 or JAA form 1 or equivalent must be supplied.

 checkmark 

Tod
 
Dougloid
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 19):
Thank you. By requesting a NTO you have given the original manufacturer visibility that someone is manufacturing parts using their data. Sometimes this propriatary data has not been legitimately obtained.

Doesn't make any diff. The FAA will not disclose to the original designer/manufacturer the source of the data the PMA manufacturer used to gain approval, give them the blueprints under discovery or FOIA because it's exempted under "trade secrets".
Pratt and Whitney tried to do that and they failed in court. It's all about reverse engineering-how far can you go? It's one of my future projects.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 20):
It's one of my future projects.

Elaborate  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
julesmusician
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:29 am

I did see this today.....

Airlines using uncertified repair shops
FAA Inspector General hits airlines, safety agency, for lack of oversight of critical repair work.
December 20, 2005: 8:51 AM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - Airlines are using uncertified workers for critical maintenance work, which operate without enough oversight of either the carriers or the Federal Aviation Administration, according to an agency investigation.

Air carriers have used non-certificated facilities for years, said the report by the FAA's Inspector General, but mostly for minor maintenance tasks. The report said that has changed in recent years, as it identified 21 facilities that performed maintenance critical to the airworthiness of the aircraft.

"Some of the critical repairs we identified that non-certificated repair facilities perform include engine replacements and adjustments to flight control systems," the report said.

The nation's major airlines, struggling to cut costs and stem operating losses since 2001, spend $4.9 billion annually for aircraft maintenance, with more than 50 percent of this maintenance work being outsourced, according to the report. But the report did not detail what percent of the outsourced work is being done at the non-certified facilities.

The report said the use of a non-certified facility has already been cited as a key factor in one fatal crash -- the January 2003 Air Midwest crash in Charlotte, North Carolina. "The mechanics incorrectly adjusted a flight control system that ultimately was determined to be a contributing cause of the crash," said the report. All 21 people on that flight were killed in the crash.

The report said that both the agency and the airlines are not exercising enough oversight of the non-certified facilities doing work.

"Air carriers we reviewed relied primarily on telephone contact to monitor maintenance work performed by non-certificated facilities rather than onsite reviews of the actual maintenance work," said the report.

The probe was requested by U.S. Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., the ranking member of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure.

"I have said repeatedly that the FAA must require airlines to operate at the highest level of safety," said a statement from Oberstar. "Airlines contract out this maintenance work to save money, but with those savings we must ensure that there is not an erosion of the margins of safety and a greater risk to the traveling public and innocent souls on the ground."

Oberstar's home state is also home to Northwest Airlines, which shifted most of its maintenance work outside its hubs in Minneapolis and Detroit to outside contractors in August. An airline spokeswoman said she could not immediately answer what percentage, if any, of the airline's outside contracts are certified.

The demand to use outside contractors for so much maintenance was one of the issues that led the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association to strike the airline in August. The airline has used the contractors and replacement workers to do its maintenance work during the ongoing strike, but it has since filed for bankruptcy court protections.

Northwest was not one of the airlines included in the Inspector General's study, which reported its investigators visited with American Airlines and its American Eagle feeder airline, Continental Airlines and its Continental Express feeder airline, AirTran Airways and Frontier Airlines.

David Castelveter, spokesman for the Air Transport Association, the industry's trade group said that it had seen the report but would have no comment until it had an opportunity to study it.
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
amtrosie
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 22):
I did see this today.....

Airlines using uncertified repair shops
FAA Inspector General hits airlines, safety agency, for lack of oversight of critical repair work.
December 20, 2005: 8:51 AM EST

You are quoting a media source, who with a couple of misplaced words can alter the facts dramatically.

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 22):
The report said the use of a non-certified facility has already been cited as a key factor in one fatal crash -- the January 2003 Air Midwest crash in Charlotte, North Carolina. "The mechanics incorrectly adjusted a flight control system that ultimately was determined to be a contributing cause of the crash," said the report. All 21 people on that flight were killed in the crash.

While I will not say if that facility was 100% right in its practices (an inspector giving OJT and supervising simultaneously) NOT CERTIFIED? They were a part 145 station- that is the certification.
Be careful what you read!!

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 1):
its more of a storkeepers job!

WRONG!!!! The A&P is the one who is responsible!!! He/she signs the book, they take the responsibility. A company may hold their store's people responsible, but the FAA holds the A&P responsible. WE are the ones who could be hauled into court, etc.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 23):
WRONG!!!! The A&P is the one who is responsible!!! He/she signs the book, they take the responsibility. A company may hold their store's people responsible, but the FAA holds the A&P responsible. WE are the ones who could be hauled into court, etc.

Well, that's what all the people upstream always say when they're getting their feet held to the fire. It seems a bit disingenuous, considering the kind of choices A&P mechs have to make every day, any one of which could a) kill a load of civilians or b) find the mech out in the street with their rollaway looking for another job because they wouldn't sign off on a repair.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
tbanger
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 23):
WRONG!!!! The A&P is the one who is responsible!!! He/she signs the book, they take the responsibility. A company may hold their store's people responsible, but the FAA holds the A&P responsible. WE are the ones who could be hauled into court, etc.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 24):
Well, that's what all the people upstream always say when they're getting their feet held to the fire. It seems a bit disingenuous, considering the kind of choices A&P mechs have to make every day, any one of which could a) kill a load of civilians or b) find the mech out in the street with their rollaway looking for another job because they wouldn't sign off on a repair.

What the storekeeper does is checks that everything is in order prior to giving the part a batch number. What this batch number does is provides traceability back to the paperwork for later viewing. Which in turn traces it back to repair or manufacture. If the storperson decides to "cheat it" there is nothing stopping him from doing that. However if an airliner crashed killing all on board and the fault traced back to one singular part and the inquiry found that the part was dodgy, or the paperwork seemed counterfeit, then I can assure you that the A&P's Lawyers will be doing their damnedest to make sure it is the storeperson or Purchasing Officer that goes to gaol instead of their client.

We are in the 21st Century now. Times have changed.

When you start clocking up years of experience, it would be very difficult to play dumb in Court and say, "But I'm only a storeman...I didn't know any better."

The truth is, we accept that we are making sure that everything is in order on the A&P's behalf and if one of my aircraft went down, I would be standing up and backing the Engineer all the way. We work as a team and are links of a chain. We cant do without the other. I am paid to ensure what I do is within the applicable regulations. If I hand out a knowingly bogus part, it won't just be my job that I lose.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 23):
WRONG!!!! The A&P is the one who is responsible!!! He/she signs the book, they take the responsibility. A company may hold their store's people responsible, but the FAA holds the A&P responsible. WE are the ones who could be hauled into court, etc.

i meant it in the context that the stores department will check the components form 1 before the parts ever even get close to the engineers!
 
amtrosie
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 25):
However if an airliner crashed killing all on board and the fault traced back to one singular part and the inquiry found that the part was dodgy, or the paperwork seemed counterfeit, then I can assure you that the A&P's Lawyers will be doing their damnedest to make sure it is the storeperson or Purchasing Officer that goes to gaol instead of their client.

Legally, it is the sole responsibility of the individual "INSTALLING" the part. Check the FAR's
 
Tod
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 20):
Doesn't make any diff. The FAA will not disclose to the original designer/manufacturer the source of the data the PMA manufacturer used to gain approval, give them the blueprints under discovery or FOIA because it's exempted under "trade secrets".

You are correct about the FAA not disclosing the PMA data source, but to partmark a PMA part with someone elses part number the FAA requires a level of data that although it may be difficult to prove in court, is pretty obvious to all involved. The subject gets discussed at just about every annual FAA DER Recurrent training seminar held. These seminars are free, open to the general public and held throughout the country. You may enjoy attending one.

It does make a big diference if the OEM is providing the PMA manufacturer any data for any other reasons. Boeing will turn off the data supply to an aftermarket manufacturer if it feels that that company is misusing it's proprietary data. If they smell something funny going on your access to myboeingfleet.com gets shut off until the Boeing auditors come pay a visit and everyone's lawyers kiss and make up.

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:32 pm

Quoting Tod (Reply 28):
The subject gets discussed at just about every annual FAA DER Recurrent training seminar held. These seminars are free, open to the general public and held throughout the country. You may enjoy attending one.

Is there any reports on the discussions on the net.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Is there any reports on the discussions on the net.

Haven't seen any, but I haven't looked very hard. Just now, I scanned in a few pages on the subject of PMA from a FAA Standardization seminar.
Contact me and I'll email it to you. Unfortunately, it just an overview, the real details were discussed verbally.
The big issue for DERs is how can you confirm identicality without access to the OEM data. Even if the part looks perfect, materials, processes, tolerances and everything must be confirmed. Processes can be the most difficult because without the OEM data how would you prove that your processes are identical?

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent

Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:13 pm

Quoting Tod (Reply 30):

Emailed you.
Awaiting the same.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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