grimey
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More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:38 am

Just wondering is there any flights nowadays that have more then 2 crew members working in the cockpit? I know airlines love the B747-400 because it only requires 2 pilots, unlike the earlier versions of the B747 that required 3 or 4 pilots in the cockpit.

Grimey
 
bravo7e7
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:40 am

Any flight between 8 and 12 hours requires a relief pilot, and any flight over 12 hours requires two relief pilots, for a total of four pilots.
 
wilco737
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:41 am

Hi Grimey,

for very long flights there you need to have some sort of relief pilot! we at Lufthansa have a so called Senior First Officer! If the flight is longer than I think 8 hours, there need to be 3 pilots on that flight! But not the whole flight! After take off and some sort of meal, one goes to the crew rest and takes nap, then the next and finally the last... so, there are always at least 2 pilots in the cockpit...

WILCO737
 airplane 
 
Grbld
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:43 am

Yes, if flights are longer than a certain limit, one or two extra pilots may be needed to stretch the allowable flight and duty time.

At the basis, there's the flight and duty times as determined by law. On top of that, the airlines collective bargaining agreement with the pilots may have more restrictive flight and duty time limits.

Other times when you'll find additional pilots in the cockpit is when some form of instruction or examination is in progress.

Grbld
 
wdleiser
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):
Hi Grimey,

for very long flights there you need to have some sort of relief pilot! we at Lufthansa have a so called Senior First Officer! If the flight is longer than I think 8 hours, there need to be 3 pilots on that flight! But not the whole flight! After take off and some sort of meal, one goes to the crew rest and takes nap, then the next and finally the last... so, there are always at least 2 pilots in the cockpit...

WILCO737

I have been fortunate enough to fly jump seat several times on LH on the 744 and once on the A333..... you are indeed correct, the flights from Los Angeles to Frankfurt has 3 pilots so to speak, the Captain, SFO, and FO. On Frankfurt-Joburg the SFO went to sleep after it was ok to turn on the electronics. Then in Joburg the SFO stayed a day less than the rest of the crew, I think instead of flying the shuttle to cape town (back when it was Frankfurt-Joburg-Capetown) the SFO stayed back at the hotel, and went with the crew departing for Frankfurt that evening.

Perhaps you know my step mother..... Birgit Leiser? she is a Purser II and flies only long hauls. My dad and I are flying to SFO tomorrow to meet up with her for the Xmas flight.

[Edited 2005-12-22 20:49:56]
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:05 am

Well, all airlines flying the older 743 and 742 versions have the FE in the cockpit....AI still flies a small fleet of them.....4 aircrafts I believe.....
 
Matt72033
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 1):



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):



Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):

i think he meant if there was a FE aboard many aircraft these days!
does the 732 have a FE?
 
grimey
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 5):
Well, all airlines flying the older 743 and 742 versions have the FE in the cockpit....AI still flies a small fleet of them.....4 aircrafts I believe.....



Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
i think he meant if there was a FE aboard many aircraft these days!
does the 732 have a FE?

Thanks, both of you understood my question, I meant was there more then 2 pilots working at the same time; for example Pilot, Co-Pilot, Flight Engineer, Navigator etc.
I know about a pilot can only fly a certain amount of hours until he has to take a rest and some other pilot takes his place.

Grimey
 
Matt72033
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:02 am

well DC10's have FE's
A300?
A310?
727
747-1/2/300SP
Tu154
L1011
DC8
DC9
AN225
ll96
 
Stoicescu
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:02 am

DC-9 doesn't have a FE, A310 doesn't have a FE also and the A300 only the first versions required a FE.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
i think he meant if there was a FE aboard many aircraft these days!
does the 732 have a FE?

The 737 has no F/E position on any version.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 8):

A300?
A310?

The early 300s had F/Es. But the position was removed, IIRC starting with some Garuda planes.

Some 767s (for Ansett and Aeroflot?) had a (totally pointless) F/E position due to (equally pointless) union regs.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Matt72033
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:47 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Some 767s (for Ansett and Aeroflot?) had a (totally pointless) F/E position due to (equally pointless) union regs

was this the extremely small FE panel?
wasn't sure on the 300 or 310!
 
wing
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:04 pm

I couldn't catch the days of 3 men cockpits as we caught the FMS era.The aircraft I flew 737 and 320 families were all glass cockpits and certified for 2 men ops.

In this month as the newcomers to our fleet arrives(the new type rated or transitioning from another type to 320) as a senior FO often fly as a safety pilot(whose job is to take controls if the captain becomes incapacitated and help the new guy about the FO jobs and airplane systems)

During the times I have been observing the flight I noticed the the extra set of eyes looking behind the two in the cockpit has a wider angle of sight.From there you can see everything they do good or not so good.

Although its not commercially feasable anymore but a trained 3 pilot in the cockpit seems be safer in my opinion.( But the jumpseat must be more comfortable ofcourse after a 10 hour duty on the jumpseat really hurts your buttom  Smile )
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9VSRH
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:14 pm

All CX flights to Europe, the US and Jo'Burg have 4 crew usually a Capt, F/O, a senior F/O (relief commander) and an S/O. Also Australian routes usually have 3 crew but occasionally 4.
 
mandala499
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:39 pm

The early 300s had F/Es. But the position was removed, IIRC starting with some Garuda planes.

Yes, Garuda had the B4-220FFCC with 2 man cockpits... apparently there's some discussion on whether this was the first 2 man cockpit widebody or not (check the dates... I can't remember).

But the jumpseat must be more comfortable ofcourse after a 10 hour duty on the jumpseat really hurts your buttom

I feel sorry for those on-board Dispatchers/FOOs... 8hr flying on the jumpseat... GA has it on some of their 734s (something to do with availability of radio coverage, weather and all that... I dunno exactly what)... And yes, the on-board engineer... flies jumpseat on full flights into airports without maintenance facilities!

So, you still get a "3 man "crew"" sometimes on a 2 seater (ie. 3 different positions, not talking about relief)

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 5):
AI still flies a small fleet of them.....4 aircrafts I believe.....

Soon would be gone  Smile

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
does the 732 have a FE

No.B732 has total 4 seats:- P1,P2,1st observer & 2nd Observer.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Some 767s (for Ansett and Aeroflot?) had a (totally pointless) F/E position due to (equally pointless) union regs

was this the extremely small FE panel?

The 767 F/E panel:


This pic is after "conversion" to a 2 man flight deck:


Pics stolen off an A.nut post a while ago.

Quoting Wing (Reply 12):
Although its not commercially feasable anymore but a trained 3 pilot in the cockpit seems be safer in my opinion.(

The third pilot is nowadays known as TCAS Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
EMBQA
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
The third pilot is nowadays known as TCAS

???? What does TCAS have to do with a 3rd Pilot...?? I'd say FMS is a better 3rd Pilot...
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 17):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
The third pilot is nowadays known as TCAS

???? What does TCAS have to do with a 3rd Pilot...?? I'd say FMS is a better 3rd Pilot...

It was said in jest since Wing was mentioning how the 3rd flight deck member has a "wider angle of sight".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:03 pm

Wow Starlion...thanks for the photo, I'd never seen the plumber's panel on the 767.

Look like they just smeared a few panels from the overhead and called it a panel-a clock, the pneumantics panel, hydraulics, fuel, pressurization, and a few other things...oh yes, don't forget the bonus CRT and table. Stuff we look at now as normal flows for a two man crew. Would have been interesting to see how little work everyone had to do.

I think I saw that these Ansett birds found their way to the desert?

DeltaGuy
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HAWK21M
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:33 pm

Interesting Pics.Thanks for Sharing.Whats the screen in the 1st pic.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 14):
Yes, Garuda had the B4-220FFCC with 2 man cockpits

Originally at least, these were still three man cockpits, just that the traditional sideways facing F/E station was replaced by additional controls on the overhead. The F/E sat behind the pedestal, facing forward. Hence the term Forward Facing Crew Concept.

All A300s are three man crew, except the A300-600 and possibly the FFCC versions. However the F/E on an A300 doesn't have a lot to do in normal operations as the F/E panel is virtually all automatic.

A310s were originally produced with an F/E station, but fairly soon these were replaced when two crew versions became the norm.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
does the 732 have a FE

No.B732 has total 4 seats:- P1,P2,1st observer & 2nd Observer.

It nearly had an F/E station. Some airlines were reluctant to go to 2 crew cockpits initially. Hence the light grey panels on the overhead which were for the engineer to operate.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
mandala499
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:33 am

Jetlagged,
I know Airbus had the FFCC 3 man option, but GA operated the 2 man FFCC... I think only Garuda and (not sure about this one) KARAir had the 2 man FFCC... and not sure if anyone adopted the 3man FFCC...

Btw, anyone else but GA operated PW JT9Ds on the A300-B4s ? (Not the -600s!)

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
musapapaya
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 13):
All CX flights to Europe, the US and Jo'Burg have 4 crew usually a Capt, F/O, a senior F/O (relief commander) and an S/O. Also Australian routes usually have 3 crew but occasionally 4.

Hello all,
Is this kind of a waste of resource and money? Why use 4 if 3 is enough? I am sure CX is not that stupid huh?
Merry Christmas!
William
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 23):
Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 13):
All CX flights to Europe, the US and Jo'Burg have 4 crew usually a Capt, F/O, a senior F/O (relief commander) and an S/O. Also Australian routes usually have 3 crew but occasionally 4.

Hello all,
Is this kind of a waste of resource and money? Why use 4 if 3 is enough? I am sure CX is not that stupid huh?

Often you will have an additional since you need to position him anyway.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
lorm
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 19):
Wow Starlion...thanks for the photo, I'd never seen the plumber's panel on the 767.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):

Pics stolen off an A.nut post a while ago.

Cmon at least remember to give credit to the guy who took the photographs.  Smile. Those pictures Starlionblue posted are photographs by Chris Boulton that I scanned in from his 4 page article in Airliners Magazine No. 54. VC-10 graciously allowed it to be posted in barring any complaints from Chris Boulton...

When Ansett's 767 order was placed in March 1980, the Australian Federation of Pilots and the Australian Flight Engineers Association insisted that the aircraft be operated by two pilots and a flight engineer. The flight engineers panel would incorporate the EICAS, A/C Packs, Pneumatics, Fuel, and Cabin Pressure controls. All of the first 5 767-277s msns 22692-22696 were delivered with the F/E station. Through the 1980s many of the F/Es who flew on the 727s and 767s were offered voluntary redundancy packages or the option to take flying training. Those that elected to stay on the 727 and 767 were allowed to stay. First 767 F/E station removal was done in Feb 98 (msn 22695) which lightened it by 220 lbs. msn 22692 was delivered with the F/E panel permanently hard wired in and required much more labor. The others were delivered with the provisions to be modified.

-LorM
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting LorM (Reply 25):

Cmon at least remember to give credit to the guy who took the photographs. Smile. Those pictures Starlionblue posted are photographs by Chris Boulton that I scanned in from his 4 page article in Airliners Magazine No. 54. VC-10 graciously allowed it to be posted in barring any complaints from Chris Boulton...

Well, I will remember in the future. To be honest I had totally forgotten when and in which thread I got those. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:45 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 23):
Why use 4 if 3 is enough

Isn't there a Requirement for x no of hrs of SNY travel for the S/O.
Probably its to follow that regulation.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Whats the screen in the 1st pic

Its an EICAS screen, copy of the lower EICAS, but the maint pages are accessible in flight. Last El Al B767 I saw still had it fitted, but no F/E.
 
Stoicescu
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:37 am

It says in the FAR/AIM book it is because of maximum time on duty regulations but I don't have the book in front of me (is in my flight bag)

2 pilots --> no more than 8 hours

3 pilots --> no more than 14 hours I believe
 
Tom12
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:58 am

(Appology's dont know how to quote, first day) But yeah Stoicescu is correct AIM does state that - 2 pilots 8 hours, - 3 pilots 14 hours. But doesen't AIM only cover the US? CX have 4 pilots on all long haul flights with the exception of the B777 which only has 2 in the flight deck (and i think the B777 s on long haul routes!)

Regards
"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 30):
(Appology's dont know how to quote, first day)

Welcome to the forums! To quote, select the text and press the "Quote Selected Text" button top right of the post.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:12 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 28):
Its an EICAS screen, copy of the lower EICAS, but the maint pages are accessible in flight

Interesting.Thanks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
mandala499
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:11 pm

Tom12,
Welcome...
As far as I know, CX don't fly their 777s long haul at the moment... so no real need for >2 crew on deck.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:24 pm

Welcome Tom.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 33):
CX don't fly their 777s long haul at the moment

Any Particular reason.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
9VSRH
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 33):
CX don't fly their 777s long haul at the moment

Any Particular reason.
regds
MEL

From what I've heard CX only purchased the 772A and the 773s for high density regional routes such as to Singapore, Bangkok, Taipei etc... and not suprisingly they do this really efficiently. They were never really meant for long haul at CX
Cheers
Patrick Rostron
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:52 am

The overhead panel on that Ansett bird must have been pretty bare- got bored and did a little MS paint to a pic of a normal one...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/flydeltajets/764245.jpg

Pilots must have had nothing to do!

DeltaGuy
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:04 am

LOL!

Well I'm pretty sure Boeing figured they would come to their senses (as they did) and left all the stuff in there.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:15 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 36):

Sure looks weird.Glad the Instruments were left in  biggrin 
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:59 am

Almost as naked as the 727 overhead panel...seems like there's nothing there other than lighting controls.

I'd have to bring my gameboy along if I were in the front of that 767..let the engineer do all the work  Wink

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan

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