Dreamflight767
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UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:17 pm

Hi Crew:

First off, Happy New Years!

Secondly...

When I monitor my scanner, I hear every airline heading over the Pacific Ocean pick up their oceanic HF frequencies, complete selcal checks, and gather other clearance information from San Francisco Radio (AIRINC) except UAL.

Does UAL use sperate frequencies other then 131.95 and 129.7? Or do they use ACARS?

Thanks!

Aaron
 
PhilSquares
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Dreamflight767 (Thread starter):
When I monitor my scanner, I hear every airline heading over the Pacific Ocean pick up their oceanic HF frequencies, complete selcal checks, and gather other clearance information from San Francisco Radio (AIRINC) except UAL.

You won't hear SQ doing it. All of our aircraft are CPDLC equipped, so the only thing required is a SELCAL check, after that everything is done through data link.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:47 am

Interesting...what is CPDLC? I'm up to date on the data link though! Thanks.
 
LAXintl
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:30 am

CPDLC = Controller Pilot DataLink Communication
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
calpilot
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:17 am

CO is CPDLC too. I only get the SELCAL ck.
 
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RobK
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:46 am

Aaron, if you want to know which aircraft you're listening to after hearing the selcal code, you can look them up on my website at http://www.selcalweb.co.uk.

18,100+ individual selcal-equipped frames - you'll be hard pushed to hear one that isn't listed! If you do, send it along to me and I'll see what I can do!

Cheers,

RK  spin 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:00 pm

RobK the links not working.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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RobK
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
RobK the links not working.

It's because I accidentally put a dot at the end of the link.

http://www.selcalweb.co.uk try that.

RK  spin 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:58 pm

Thanks.Interesting link.
It worked with the Aircraft in our fleet.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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RobK
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
Thanks.Interesting link.
It worked with the Aircraft in our fleet.

What fleet is that then Mel?  confused 

RK
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:56 pm

Thanks! That is really cool!

Have a great night.

Aaron
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 9):
What fleet is that then Mel

BDA now DHL
VT-BDE
VT-BDF
VT-BDG
VT-BDH
VT-BDI
All Aircraft SELCALs were present.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
SuseJ772
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:32 am

Alright, I'll be the stupid one and ask what is SECALs? Is it like a specialized frequency? I have a pretty good understanding of VOR, ILS, etc... but when it comes to transcontienetal travel I am not too educated. What is the Oceanic HF? ACARS? How does CPDLC work?
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
SuseJ772
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:03 pm

Alright, after reading the "About" section at http://www.selcalweb.co.uk I have learned a little more about how selcal works, but how is that different from the others? It almost sounds like selcal is really "old fashioned" (pardon the statement if that is in some way offensive).
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:03 pm

Is there any SELCAL replacement in the pipeline.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 12):
How does CPDLC work?

CPDLC is "Controller-Pilot Data Link Communication". On the 744 it is done through the FMS. There are ATC centers in the world that have this capability. Simply put, you log on to the center, the actual data transmission is either by VHF or Sat Comm. You wait until the center accepts you and then you communicate the required position reports via CPDLC. Great system.

In the North Atlantic the system is even better. CPDLC is used as well ADS-B (automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast) Simply put, the aircraft broadcasts via VHF or Sat Comm the position based on GPS data. It is received and displayed on a computer screen. However the presentation is just like radar. So in the NAT system, once you log on to CPDLC, you don't even have to make position reports.

CPDLC works great enroute where the work load is much less than in the terminal area. However, I think it would be extremely impractical in the terminal area. Secondly, in the "old" days you could hear people on HF reporting their position so from that you could get a visual map of who was where in relation to you. Now you've lost that ability.

As I stated earlier, other parts of the world now have the capability. Singapore, Australia, Parts of India. It's really frustrating flying in some parts of the world and not having CPDLC. Especially, with the ATC charges the other countries are charging.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Mir
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 13):
It almost sounds like selcal is really "old fashioned" (pardon the statement if that is in some way offensive).

It may seem old-fashioned, and it probably is, but it works well for what it does, and I don't think that there's any need to change it. VORs are old technolgy too, but are still a primary means of navigation in many parts of the world. Just because it's old doesn't mean it isn't useful.

What I'm interested in knowing (and perhaps PhilSquares knows this) is whether ATC can call an aircraft using CPDLC, which would negate the need for SELCAL on that aircraft. I'm assuming CPDLC is not a voice method of communication but rather a text method, so ATC could just call an aircraft with CPDLC, and that aircraft would turn on their HF radio to have the required conversation.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PhilSquares
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
What I'm interested in knowing (and perhaps PhilSquares knows this) is whether ATC can call an aircraft using CPDLC, which would negate the need for SELCAL on that aircraft

Yes, the CPDLC units on each aircraft are all addressable. They each have their own unique address. However, you still need SELCAL for HF. SELCAL is not a function of CPDLC.

So, all the conversations are done in text and not done via HF.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
It may seem old-fashioned, and it probably is, but it works well for what it does, and I don't think that there's any need to change it.

HF is absolutely terrible! Try making a position report at night over the Indian Ocean. It's impossible, there is so much frequency saturation it's impossible. HF is still the same technology Amelia Earhart used!!! It's absolutely a crime that CPDLC, for enroute operations hasn't been mandated.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Mir
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 17):
Yes, the CPDLC units on each aircraft are all addressable. They each have their own unique address. However, you still need SELCAL for HF. SELCAL is not a function of CPDLC.

So what you're saying is that ATC can't text "call me" to a certain aircraft via CPDLC, and then that aircraft calls in on the HF radio?

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 17):
HF is absolutely terrible! Try making a position report at night over the Indian Ocean. It's impossible, there is so much frequency saturation it's impossible. HF is still the same technology Amelia Earhart used!!! It's absolutely a crime that CPDLC, for enroute operations hasn't been mandated.

I was referring to SELCAL. I know HF is awful - I listen to live feeds from over the north atlantic occasionally, and the static is a pain in the ass. CPDLC is the way to go if possible, but there will always (at least for the forseeable future) be planes that are old and aren't CPDLC-equipped, and so HF is necessary. HF does suck, but as a method of getting planes to call in without having them have to listen to the HF constantly, I think SELCAL, old though it may be, works well enough.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PhilSquares
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
I was referring to SELCAL. I know HF is awful - I listen to live feeds from over the north atlantic occasionally, and the static is a pain in the ass. CPDLC is the way to go if possible, but there will always (at least for the forseeable future) be planes that are old and aren't CPDLC-equipped, and so HF is necessary. HF does suck, but as a method of getting planes to call in without having them have to listen to the HF constantly, I think SELCAL, old though it may be, works well enough.

I disagree. Let them apply the same criteria as MNPS. Then if they don't have the equipment then they have to fly out of the NAT or NOPAC. It's about time the rest of the world caught up.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
So what you're saying is that ATC can't text "call me" to a certain aircraft via CPDLC, and then that aircraft calls in on the HF radio?

Sure they could. But why would they. There is too much traffic on HF and in addition, CPDLC leaves nothing to interpretation.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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RobK
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:27 am

You can invent whatever computerised gimmicks you want, but they won't kill off selcals.

If you're planning to remove your headsets when in an area out of VHF range you MUST get a selcal check and maintain a selcal watch. No selcal check = listening to the static! You can be ADS, CPDLC, HFDL, ACARS, blah blah whatever, but you still need to be contactable via voice! Computers are great when they're working..........

Selcals may have been around for the past 40 years but they do the job fine.

As a side note, I believe that level change clearances are always done by voice to avoid any confusion.

RK  Smile
 
PhilSquares
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 20):
I believe that level change clearances are always done by voice to avoid any confusion.

No
Fly fast, live slow
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:25 pm

Thanks for all the info. guys. But I still don't understand why UAL is the ONLY airline I don't hear doing SELCAL checks and getting the HF frequencies. I hear every airline (SQ included) operating out of SFO/SJC/OAK about to cross the pacific getting this information from San Francisco Radio on 131.95 and 129.7 except for UAL. I have had a scanner for years and know the drill very well. All flights and all airlines operating to Asia, Hawaii, Australia, New Zealand, and sometimes ANC get their clearance except UAL. Why is this?
 
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RobK
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:50 am

Selcal checks can be done on VHF (if in range) or HF. They WILL be getting a selcal check somewhere before entering oceanic airspace. It's compulsory.

RK
 
LAXintl
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:02 pm

I am near 100% certain UA SFO ops frequency has SELCAL capability. I know they are able to do phone patches themselves also if required on the company frequency.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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RobK
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:44 am

@ Laxintl,

That'll be the ARINC LDOC frequencies.

R
 
LAXintl
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RE: UAL Oceanic Ops. Question

Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 25):
That'll be the ARINC LDOC frequencies.

No, United has what the company terms "RDI" Remote Dialup Interface capabilities at several of its station here in the states making use of DTMF microphones installed on aircraft.

Specifically for SFO this capability is available on two of its four company ops frequencies at the station 129.1 and 131.4.

As far as CPDLC flights at SFO, the UA station guide simply advises:
"CPDLC Flights - Before departure advise Arinc of intentions to use CPDLC with Oakland Center. ATC datalink log on KZAK.

No mention is made of timing/need for Selcal checks.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

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