HPLASOps
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Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:38 pm

I know that the beacon lights on the aircraft are used to signify that the aircraft is moving, engines are on, or mx is being done. On a couple of occasions, I have spotted aircraft taxiing without beacon lights on. Is there a penalty for that, perhaps a fine? Maybe just a warning? I'm sure it was because it slipped the pilot's mind to turn it on, but I'm just curious as to the legal ramifications for not turning it on.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
ilbcnu10
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:23 pm

Nav lights and the Beacon are different.Beacon is the "strobe" light. I am only a private pilot thought and dont want to misquote any Part 135 rules.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:33 pm

I thought the red rotating beacon and the wingtip strobes were 2 different circuits? IIRC from what I have observed the strobe doesn't get turned on until airborne, and the beacon is basically the signal for rampers when it is and isn't safe to approach the aircraft (on = unsave and vice-versa). Correct me if I'm wrong.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
HPLASOps
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting ILBCNU10 (Reply 1):
Nav lights and the Beacon are different.Beacon is the "strobe" light.

I am aware of that, and it is the red strobe lights on top of and on the bottom of aircraft.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
EMBQA
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:57 pm

Nav Lights: Red and Green Wing tip lights and white light on the tail. Used all the time.

Beacons: Red light on the belley and top of the aircraft ( rotating or strobe) Used all the time.

Strobes: White strobe lights on the wing tips. Also called anti-collision lights. Used only when lighting and visability warrents them.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Mir
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:04 pm

I fly planes that don't have beacon lights (Piper Warrior). The strobes are used on the ground during the day as a replacement, and the nav lights are used at night (though they would be on anyway). So it's perfectly legal to not have beacon lights. Whether it's ok to have them and not use them is a different matter - I'm not sure about that. Perhaps the rules are different for a tow than a taxi with engine power.

-Mir
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gorbskow
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:32 pm

Anti-collision lights are on the VFR required Day and Night list meaning that they must be operable and used to fly an aircraft. As far as anti-collision lights go they are either aviation approved red or white lights. generally considered a red rotating beacon however if a rotating beacon is not installed on the aircraft, strobes can be used.

Position lights are entirely different. They are only required to be used at night.
NIGHT: The end of evening civil twilight to the beginning of morning civil
twilight

Anti-collision lights should be used when the airplanes engines are running . Position lights should be used when the airplane is moving at night regardless of if it is under its own power or being towed.
Note: company specs may require more strict rules
 
HPLASOps
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:58 pm

But what's the penalty for not having a beacon light on while taxiiing?
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
flymia
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:09 pm

For the airliners I am pretty sure this is how it goes.

Beacon Lights which are the red lights on the top and bottom of the plane which can rotate or flash are turned on before the engines are turned on and are turned off when the engines turn off. So they are used to show that the engines are running.

Strobe Lights or the flashing wing tip lights are turned on day or night once the airplane is on the active runway and the lights are turned off once the airplane leaves the active runway after landings.

The nav lights or red and green static wing tip lights are used all the time and don't really have many rules except they need to be on when moving, they might be on at the gate or not but once moving they are turned on, but it all depends on airlines SOP too.
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HPLASOps
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:34 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
know that the beacon lights on the aircraft are used to signify that the aircraft is moving, engines are on, or mx is being done.



Quoting ILBCNU10 (Reply 1):
Beacon is the "strobe" light



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
Beacons: Red light on the belley and top of the aircraft ( rotating or strobe) Used all the time.



Quoting Gorbskow (Reply 6):
Anti-collision lights are on the VFR required Day and Night list meaning that they must be operable and used to fly an aircraft.



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 8):
Beacon Lights which are the red lights on the top and bottom of the plane which can rotate or flash are turned on before the engines are turned on and are turned off when the engines turn off. So they are used to show that the engines are running.

I think we've established which lights are the beacon lights and what they're used for, but I'm curious if anyone knows if/what the penalty is for not using them (if an aircraft is supposed to) during motion?
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
aircanada014
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:29 pm

Anti Collisions is for the red lights sits ontop of the aircraft and bottom of the aircraft not the strobe lights on the wingtip. the red strobe light ( anti collision lights ) are turn on when aircraft leaves the gate. I know that for sure. I've been on many times when my dad flies the 767-200s. the white strobe lights which is on each wingtip goes on usually out in the field prior to take off or when they start going down the runway.
 
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JBo
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:37 pm

Sadly nobody is answering the main question!

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer, either.

However, I do find it interesting how sometimes different variants of the same aircraft have different beacon arrangements, such as the Saab 340.

The A models have rotating red beacons, with the upper red beacon on the forward brace of the tail.
The B and B+ models can vary. They mostly have red strobes, but the upper strobe can sometimes be at the top of the tail instead of down on the brace. Sometimes it has white strobes. I haven't paid much attention to the exact variances and the models, but the observations are based more or less on all the different XJ Saabs.

The Beech 1900 I think is unique for having the fading white beacons (descended of course from the King Air), which adds to its overall really bright white light-ness at night.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
erj-145mech
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 7):

There is no fine because its only a recommendation, not a hard and fast regulation. Aircraft may have the red beacons MEL'd, which means that the aircraft may be operated with the red beacons out of service.
 
BBJII
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
Beacons: Red light on the belley and top of the aircraft ( rotating or strobe) Used all the time

The UK CAA does permit daylight ops of flights without the Beacon's.

However: the tower MUST pass the aircrafts info to a 24 centre in London.
This centre then calls the airline and advises them that the light MUST be working when in lands on the preceeding sector.

For Example:

in November 2005:

A Cityjet (WX) flight from LCY-CDG was seen without beacons;

The system was actioned.

in CDG the beacon was fixed in order for the flight to return to LCY.

 wave 
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Matt72033
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting Erj-145mech (Reply 12):
There is no fine because its only a recommendation, not a hard and fast regulation. Aircraft may have the red beacons MEL'd, which means that the aircraft may be operated with the red beacons out of service

do airport authorities have different regulations?
i know that at LHR BAA insist that all our vans and airside cars have a rotating yellow beacon on at all times, and headlights on at all times!
i dont know if theres anything similar for aircraft!

ive certainly seen the lower beacon on the 744 removed and MEL'd
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Beacon Lights

Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:30 pm

In DUB an aircraft must have it's beacon on while the plane is "live", ie if the plane is about to push back/start engines or has just come on stand and is winding down engines. This is so that traffic (not aircraft traffic, ground services) that may be passing behind the aircraft knows that the engines may be running or that the plane is about to be pushed back to do not pass. I don't think there is a fine, If the captain has not got the beacon on when we are about to start pushback, I'll ask him to switch it on if I'm on the headset. If it's not working it has to be repaired though, I recall one occasion where it was not working and the pilot was told, his response was "I didn't hear that".
John Hancock
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 2):
IIRC from what I have observed the strobe doesn't get turned on until airborne

Not true.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
Beacons: Red light on the belley and top of the aircraft ( rotating or strobe) Used all the time.

Strobes: White strobe lights on the wing tips. Also called anti-collision lights. Used only when lighting and visability warrents them.

Out here the Red Flashing lights on the top & bottom of the Fuselage is called Anti-Collosion lights.
The White flashing lights on the Wing tips & Tail are called Strobe lights.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 14):
know that at LHR BAA insist that all our vans and airside cars have a rotating yellow beacon on at all times, and headlights on at all times

Very similiar out here.Flash rate is to be maintained at 1 flash/sec & a beep is needed to be heard.A fine can be imposed by Apron control if not followed.

As to the question.If in case of any Accident/Incident it would fall against the operator if proven it was not switched on.
However at most times Mx reminds Pilots/Mechanics & at Times ATC too.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Ralgha
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Gorbskow (Reply 6):
Anti-collision lights are on the VFR required Day and Night list meaning that they must be operable and used to fly an aircraft.

A common misconception. Only aircraft certified after 1996 are required to have anti-collision lights in the daytime. Of course if you do have anti-collision lights, and they don't work, that's a whole different set of rules.

At night, you must have an anti-collision light(s). All installed anti-collision lights must work, and must be used (unless it's a safety issue, like strobes in the vicinity of other aircraft on the ground).
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Matt72033
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Out here the Red Flashing lights on the top & bottom of the Fuselage is called Anti-Collosion lights.
The White flashing lights on the Wing tips & Tail are called Strobe lights.

my understanding is wing tip strobes and upper and lower beacons are all anti col lights! and red and green wing tip lights are nav lights
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 17):
At night, you must have an anti-collision light(s). All installed anti-collision lights must work, and must be used (unless it's a safety issue, like strobes in the vicinity of other aircraft on the ground

Its an Deffered item in Day Flight.Its easier to replace the Lower Anti coll light on a B737 than the Upper one  biggrin 

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Matt72033
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Its an Deffered item in Day Flight.Its easier to replace the Lower Anti coll light on a B737 than the Upper one

we MEL'd the lower beacon on a 744 the other week, it was on a day flight, but it wouldnt have been done at the outstation so it would have to fly back which was a night flight!
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:52 am

Reading our MEL, for the 744 both upper and lower anti-collision lights can be inop, provide both white wing tip strobe and tail strobe are working. Conversly, the strobes can all be out provided both upper and lower anti-collision beacons are working. FYI, it's a C item.

Quoting JBo (Reply 11):
Sadly nobody is answering the main question!

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer, either.

If you are an air carrier and the aircraft is released without the proper release, and in violation of the MEL, then you are subject to fines. If you're an aircraft owner and willfully violate the regulations then you are subject to fines and license action. In reality, that probably wouldn't happen. Most likely just a "harshly" worded letter.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Matt72033
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:08 am

CAT C 10 days right?
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 22):
CAT C 10 days right?

Correct!
Fly fast, live slow
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:14 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 20):
we MEL'd the lower beacon on a 744 the other week, it was on a day flight, but it wouldnt have been done at the outstation so it would have to fly back which was a night flight!

True.But if an Aircraft is not Equipped with Strobes.Can any one Anti Coll be inop for Night flight or both are supposed to be Operative for despatch at Night.Im speakng of a B747.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:39 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Can any one Anti Coll be inop for Night flight or both are supposed to be Operative for despatch at Night.Im speakng of a B747

Please see reply 21. It's right out of the MEL.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:12 pm

So both have to be operative on a B747 for night flights.
Thanks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:19 pm

No. As long as either all the strobes are working then both beacons can be inop, or if both beacons are working then all the strobes can be inop.
Fly fast, live slow
 
salim
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:46 pm

By the way, what are identification lights??
thanks
 
Matt72033
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RE: Beacon Lights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting Salim (Reply 28):
By the way, what are identification lights??

do you mean logo lights?
 
HPLASOps
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RE: Beacon Lights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Erj-145mech (Reply 12):
There is no fine because its only a recommendation, not a hard and fast regulation. Aircraft may have the red beacons MEL'd, which means that the aircraft may be operated with the red beacons out of service.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 27):
No. As long as either all the strobes are working then both beacons can be inop, or if both beacons are working then all the strobes can be inop.

Thank you, at least I got two people answered the question. That was what I was looking for.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Beacon Lights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 27):
No. As long as either all the strobes are working then both beacons can be inop, or if both beacons are working then all the strobes can be inop.

Understood Thanks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
727EMflyer
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RE: Beacon Lights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:51 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 30):
Quoting Erj-145mech (Reply 12):
There is no fine because its only a recommendation, not a hard and fast regulation. Aircraft may have the red beacons MEL'd, which means that the aircraft may be operated with the red beacons out of service.


Actually there could be a fine. I don't think you'll find it in the FAR's, but in the AIM, 4-3-23 states that an anti-colision light system SHALL be used (if installed) during ALL operations. Yes, that would include taxiing. It further states, as has been mentioned, that the ACL system can consist of strobe or beacon lights. So like PhilSquares said, if one is inop, use the other to do the job!
Would you get a fine? No, probably not. Most likely, at a towered airport, the pilot would get a radio call reminding him to switch it on. If a complaint is made at a non-towered airport, the owner/operator will probably get a phone call or letter, as PhilSquares said, letting him know he was fubar. The FAA knows pilots are inheriently stupid. No one is out there being a bad-a**, intentionally taxiing without lights (if that's your idea of a thrill, maybe computer programing would be a better hobby [biggrin]) and someone just forgot to flip a switch or verify operation.
 
erj-145mech
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RE: Beacon Lights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 32):
light system SHALL be used (if installed) during ALL operations

SHALL be used is different from WILL be used. SHALL is a recommendation, WILL is a regulation. When I'm flying in the daytime, and visibility is 50 miles, I shall not use my rotating beacons because another pilot WILL see my aircraft before he sees my beacons, due to the intensity of the bulbs.
 
bri2k1
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RE: Beacon Lights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Erj-145mech (Reply 33):
SHALL is a recommendation

I'm not entirely sure about that. From the FARs, 1.3 (b) (1), "Shall" is used in an imperative sense. This usage is not expressly defined again in the AIM, at least, not that I could find. To me, if the FAA tells me something is imperative, then I darn well better be doing it. Even if it is great daytime visibility, I am always looking for those red beacons, and especially if I'm above you and have to pick you out from ground clutter, I could well see the beacon before your plane. Just food for thought... twocents 
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