cdfmxtech
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Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:16 pm

Anyone know the official story about what happened with this aircraft? It was a maintenance taxi that went bad in Memphis in 2002. Some guy has a website up that says the techs were recorded by the CVR as saying the were going to try and get the nosewheel off the ground and put the aircraft into some kind of takeoff mode inadvertently

I can't find any NTSb report about this incident.

A/C reg was N528XJ.
 
2H4
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:30 pm




Every mention I can find refers to an apparent brake failure. Here are some pics:
























2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
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litz
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:55 pm

Man, there's only one word to describe that : "ouch"

Was that WO, or was that aircraft repaired?

(and I hope nobody was hurt, that had to have been some collision!)

- litz
 
cdfmxtech
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:07 pm

The aircraft was written off.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:17 pm

Looking at the Pics,Def a Write off.
Interesting to know the story.
regds
MEL
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EMBQA
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:29 pm

First, to ba accurate... It was not Northwest, but Mesaba... and it was not an BAe-146, but an Avro Avro RJ85.

Mechanics were performing a maintenance check on a run-up pad and were rushing to bring the plane back to the gate for its scheduled departure and taxing at a high rate of speed. They either shut down or never had running the engine that drove the hydraulic pumps and when they approached the gate had no brakes and impacted the jetway.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
not an BAe-146, but an Avro Avro RJ85.

There is a difference, but it's pretty slight. Smaller than between a 734 and a 738...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cancidas
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:41 pm

that sucks... what ever happenned to the persons involved? are they still with the company?
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aogdesk
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:45 am

Boy, every time I see one of these, I feel sorry for the folks involved. Every time I'm tempted to bypass a checklist to get the a/c back in service or to the gate, these pics remind me of the importance of following procedures. As techs, we're all just as susceptible to this type of thing if we don't keep our heads up.
 
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litz
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:39 am

Checklists are ohhhh so important ... reminds me of a train accident an engineer I know was involved in ...

They were in a rush to get going, so they bypassed the usual "walk the train" air test, electing instead to trust that things were already properly connected (train was already built). It was a small train, 3 cars, 1 engine, delivering to a local steel mill.

First hill they got to, things started getting a little fast and brake applications were noneffective so they hit the emergency brake. No help.

Turned out, the pipeline was closed off @ the engine (cars were connected, brake line was not), so there was no brake.

Whole thing ended up running clear through the steel plant (runthru track), and came to a stop on the other side on an uphill.

Cause of accident? Rushing things, not following a checklist, and therefore, not following proper procedures.

- litz
 
meister808
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Cdfmxtech (Thread starter):
I can't find any NTSb report about this incident.

There wouldn't be one, because the airplane wasn't being operated for the purpose of flight.

-Meister
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EMBQA
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
There is a difference, but it's pretty slight. Smaller than between a 734 and a 738...

It's a lot more different then you'd think...different engines, different avionics, different systems..... it's more like a DC-9 and a Boeing 717.

I also heard the person in the pilots seat bailed out just before impact. Had he not, he would have been killed as the windshield and structure were pushed back to just inches from the bulkhead. I heard the whole break down of the event once...speeds, communication.. etc

[Edited 2006-01-03 23:02:15]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
It's a lot more different then you'd think...different engines, different avionics, different systems..... it's more like a DC-9 and a Boeing 717.

Point taken, but you could say most of those about 734->738  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
MissedApproach
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 10):

Yeah, someone at work emailed me a Powerpoint of those pics about a month ago. It had a bunch of crap in it about remaining seated until the plane stops, etc, so I did my own research via internet. I never found anything concrete except that the aircraft was indeed written off, that mx was taxiing the plane without pax, & that Mesabe was allowed to conduct an intrnal investigation. I was sort of surprised by that, as I've seen accident reports on some pretty minor things compared to this.
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cdfmxtech
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 10):
There wouldn't be one, because the airplane wasn't being operated for the purpose of flight.

-Meister

Wasn't aware that this mattered. That explains it then. Thank you.
 
starline
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:21 pm

>They either shut down or never had running the engine that drove the >hydraulic pumps and when they approached the gate had no brakes and >impacted the jetway

At the RJ, there's a brake accumulator that stores energy for braking without hydraulic power connected. So it doesn't explain, why the plane didn't come to a stop before the jetway. At least they must have had running the AC hydraulic pump before or while taxiing
 
learpilot
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:49 am

Does anyone know if there was another incident involving a Mesaba Avro in Oklahoma City about a month ago? I flew through there and there appeared to be one pushed away from the terminal at the edge of the ramp with what looked to be a large hole in the fuselage underneath the copilot's window. Looked like a baggage cart may have gotten away from one of the rampies, or something.
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SlamClick
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 13):
Mesabe was allowed to conduct an intrnal investigation.

Amazing! Especially since the NTSB investigated John Denver's crash when it was obvious that there was NO public safety issue whatever involved in it. They investigate crashes at the Reno Air Races I suspect because they like being in Reno on the taxpayer's dime. What kind of "transportation" issue is there in a single-seat race plane?

* * *


I recall a similar event in December 1987. This plane:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


was being taxiied by mechanics from terminal one at LAX down to a hangar on the west end of the northside taxiways. Apparently it reached a fairly high speed for taxiing and they lost control. It appears that the plane spun around and slid backwards into a TWA L-1011 damaging the wing of the Lockheed and the tail of the 146. It emerged from the repairs with this hybrid, experimental paint scheme:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George W. Hamlin


Didn't make much of a news splash however, as PS1771 went down a few days later.
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erj-145mech
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
Amazing! Especially since the NTSB investigated John Denver's crash when it was obvious that there was NO public safety issue whatever involved in it. They investigate crashes at the Reno Air Races I suspect because they like being in Reno on the taxpayer's dime. What kind of "transportation" issue is there in a single-seat race plane?

The NTSB is tasked with invesigating aircraft accidents. If the aircraft is not in the process of flight, then it is an incident. Flight means that the aircraft has moved under its own power for the intention of flight. If there is no pilot on board, then of course flight is not intentionable. The John Denver thing and the Reno things are flight accidents. Its in NTSB 830.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Starline (Reply 15):
At the RJ, there's a brake accumulator that stores energy for braking without hydraulic power connected. So it doesn't explain, why the plane didn't come to a stop before the jetway. At least they must have had running the AC hydraulic pump before or while taxiing

They had used up what little charge they had in the Emergancy Accumulator through routine taxing and during the engine runs, and were not running the engine that drives the AC Hyd. Pumps.. When they returned to the gate they had nothing left to stop... the high rate of taxi speed didn't help.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
gigneil
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
but an Avro Avro RJ85.

Not correct. It would be a British Aerospace Avro RJ85.

Avro hadn't been a company for many years before this plane was even conceived.

N
 
dl757md
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 19):
and were not running the engine that drives the AC Hyd. Pumps

I wasn't aware that engines drive AC hydraulic pumps, which are of course electrically driven.  Wink

DL757Md
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EMBQA
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 21):
wasn't aware that engines drive AC hydraulic pumps, which are of course electrically driven

The AC Generator that runs the hydraulic pumps is driven off the engines... It's been almost 10 years since I worked the Avro RJ 70, but I want to say it's off the #3 engine.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
troubleshooter
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:45 am

Engine # 1 - IDG # 1
Engine # 2 - Yellow System Hydr. Pump
Engine # 3 - Green System Hydr. Pump
Engine # 4 - IDG # 2
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Troubleshooter (Reply 23):
Engine # 2 - Yellow System Hydr. Pump
Engine # 3 - Green System Hydr. Pump

...?? and what systems does each drive...??
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
troubleshooter
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:01 pm

Yellow System:
One engine driven pump, one A/C pump and one D/C pump (brake accu px only!!!)
- flaps
- lift spoilers
- roll spoilers
- rudder
- aux fuel pumps
- landing gear emergency
- brakes
- PTU (pressure to drive the unit only!)

Green System:
One engine driven pump and the PTU (driven by the yellow system)
- standby generator
- flaps
- lift spoilers
- airbrake
- rudder
- landing gear + steering
- brakes
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
dl757md
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 22):
The AC Generator that runs the hydraulic pumps is driven off the engines

I'm not familiar with the airplane so can someone explain to me this. Can the AC hydraulic pumps be powered from either IDG? Does the aircraft also have an APU generator that could supply power to these pumps? If they had AC power to taxi the aircraft wouldn't they have had AC power available to the pumps?

DL757Md
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troubleshooter
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 26):
Can the AC hydraulic pumps be powered from either IDG?

Yes, the AC pump can be operated if the AC busses are powered. Normally a minimum of one generator (IDG or APU generator) is sufficient for that.
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
Continental
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
There is a difference, but it's pretty slight. Smaller than between a 734 and a 738...

What is the difference? I always wanted to know that. Is it just a few extra rows extended or something?
 
EMBQA
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Continental (Reply 28):
What is the difference? I always wanted to know that. Is

The big ones are upgraded, more powerful engines....upgraded cockpit from analog to glass. Most of the rest of the changes are suttle.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Airgypsy
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:11 am

I was pushed back from the gate in a BAe-146 and had the opportunity to experience the ease in which hydraulics can be left "off". Dropped the tow bar and released the brakes to find the nose wheel steering inoperative. Logic prevented me from letting my feet off the brakes the second time. We sat there while everybody was yelling for us to get gone. I was ready to shut down for a tow when I figured out, you have to turn ON the hydraulics on the overhead panel to get the pumps on line. Works great after that, and an incident free maintenance taxi.
Those itty bitty engines are started with everything OFF. If you are being "pushed" to make room for another arrival, opportunities to discover new operating modes increases.
You only get a couple of pumps on the accumulator before you are done stopping. If it doesn't feel right, it isn't right.

On some aircraft you do not turn on the hydraulics until after the tow bar has been removed to prevent the nose wheel steering from breaking the rampers legs when it centers the bar. There you are momentarily hanging by your accumulator till everyone is clear. Not a good operational feature.
 
LY744
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:04 am



Quoting Continental (Reply 28):
What is the difference? I always wanted to know that. Is it just a few extra rows extended or something?

The main difference is that they are members of different generations of the 737, introduced about a decade apart. The 800 was indeed made a bit larger than the 400, for whatever reason (to compete with the A320 probably), but it essentially replaced the 734 in Boeing's product lineup.


LY744.
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Viscount724
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:03 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
It's a lot more different then you'd think...different engines, different avionics, different systems..... it's more like a DC-9 and a Boeing 717.

Point taken, but you could say most of those about 734->738

I disagree. The 737NG has many external differences from earlier 737s including a wing almost 20% larger with 18 ft. greater span, a vertical tail about 4 feet taller, different engine nacelles, taller main landing gear etc. And the 738 is 10 ft. longer than the 734.

On the other hand, the Avro RJ 70/85/100 is externally indistinguishable from the original BAe146-100/200/300 models, with the same fuselage length, wing, and passenger capacity for equivalent models of both series. At least I've never been able to identify an early-model BAe 146-300 from a late model Avro RJ 100 by sight. The changes are all equipment and systems-related, indluding a more modern interior, not structural. That's not the case for the 737NG.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj

Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:44 am



Quoting Cancidas (Reply 7):
what ever happenned to the persons involved? are they still with the company?

Both MX were fired by Mesaba after the incident. However, I do know the guy that was driving and lets say he has a much better job than he had at Mesaba. Hate to say it but it was the best thing that could have happened to him.

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