sk909
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Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:00 am

I have been told why there was an ekstra boogie on the DC10-30 vs. the DC10-10, but I can't remember.
It isn't the usual extra weight, rather it was a more subtle reason.
Anyone out there that can refresh my mind?
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A999
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Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:12 am

As the -30 is much heavier than the-10 the extra landing gear was necessary to cope with the extra fuel load.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:27 am

The Dc10-30 could fly with the centre main leg stowed.
A mate of mine was out in Yemen with a BA DC10 with a flat tyre, and he was lacking a spare. So he removed a wheel from the centre gear, and retracted the leg, and used it to replace the flat one.
 
sk909
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting A999 (Reply 1):
As the -30 is much heavier than the-10 the extra landing gear was necessary to cope with the extra fuel load.

I know that. But that is not the reason that I am looking for. There is another reason. A more, hmmm, not usually thought of reason.

Keep posting all your ideas?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
The Dc10-30 could fly with the centre main leg stowed.
A mate of mine was out in Yemen with a BA DC10 with a flat tyre, and he was lacking a spare. So he removed a wheel from the centre gear, and retracted the leg, and used it to replace the flat one.

As MD11Engineer would tells us: "Prepare for the upcoming weight and balance nightmare".

Quoting SK909 (Reply 3):
There is another reason. A more, hmmm, not usually thought of reason.

I'm not saying you're wrong but I struggle to think of any other possible reasons.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Matt72033
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
The Dc10-30 could fly with the centre main leg stowed.

so can the 340, there i sweight restrictions though!
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:54 am

I have never heard of any other reason for the additional center boogie other than because of the extra weight involving the extra fuel.
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flyf15
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:55 am

The bogey wasn't actually needed to support the additional weight of the aircraft. It was needed to allow for greater stopping power (braking action) due to the higher weights... in the event of an aborted takeoff. Helped for landing in the same way.
 
jetstar
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:27 am

The DC-10-30 is the long range version of the DC-10 and has a center fuel tank to carry the extra fuel. The middle bogie is needed to support the center fuel tank when the tank is full
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 5):
so can the 340, there i sweight restrictions though!

Quite serious weight penalties... It will also be an MEL item in that you'll probably only be allowed say 10 sectors or maybe a 7 day limit... Have a flick through chapter 32 and all will be revealed...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):
The bogey wasn't actually needed to support the additional weight of the aircraft.

When checking under the DC-10 MAX STRUCTURAL WGT LIMITS you will see
DC-10-30 max t/o......565.0 to 580.0 (a/c specific)
with ctr. retracted.....440.0

DC-10-30 max ldg.......424.0 to 436.0
with ctr. retracted......363.5 (same as max ldg for -10 at flaps 35.)


[quote=Jetstar,reply=8]The DC-10-30 is the long range version of the DC-10 and has a center fuel tank to carry the extra fuel

correct as the -30 has 98.1 lb. in the upper & lower aux.(all wgts in 1000)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 10):
When checking under the DC-10 MAX STRUCTURAL WGT LIMITS you will see
DC-10-30 max t/o......565.0 to 580.0 (a/c specific)
with ctr. retracted.....440.0

DC-10-30 max ldg.......424.0 to 436.0
with ctr. retracted......363.5 (same as max ldg for -10 at flaps 35.)



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 10):
correct as the -30 has 98.1 lb. in the upper & lower aux.(all wgts in 1000)

these are the limitations that I posted. I don't know why the t/o & ldg. limits were shown as a copied quote from another post. These came from the DC-10 manual.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
, and retracted the leg, and used it to replace the flat one.

How does one retract a single landing gear with a load on it. I didn't think that was possible with out jacks and rewiring
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kaddyuk
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 12):
How does one retract a single landing gear with a load on it. I didn't think that was possible with out jacks and rewiring

On the A340-300, i do belive that you just depressurise the centre landing gear to remove the "weight" from it and then retract the landing gear from underneath the fuselage...

I dont think airbus will have made it so complex that you have to break into Hydraulic lines and jack the aircraft. I'll double check tomorrow...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
MDorBust
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:19 am

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/601566/L/

Bottom left corner.

Pinned for safety

Center landing gear over-ride control. No Mx personel needed like on the 340.
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United_fan
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:20 am

The DC-10-40 also has a ctr landing gear.
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airfoilsguy
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 14):

Bottom left corner.

Pinned for safety



Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 13):
On the A340-300, i do belive that you just depressurise the centre landing gear to remove the "weight" from it and then retract the landing gear from underneath the fuselage...

That is very interesting. Do you need special authorization to do this?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
The Dc10-30 could fly with the centre main leg stowed.
A mate of mine was out in Yemen with a BA DC10 with a flat tyre, and he was lacking a spare. So he removed a wheel from the centre gear, and retracted the leg, and used it to replace the flat one.

Presumingly it depends on the Aircraft weight for that flight.There would def be a weight limitation.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):
It was needed to allow for greater stopping power (braking action) due to the higher weights... in the event of an aborted takeoff. Helped for landing in the same way.

Is the Centre Gear Equipped with brakes.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Is the Centre Gear Equipped with brakes.

Don't know on the DC-10, but the centre bogie on the 340 pair/bogie (depending on version) does not have brakes IIRC.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:19 pm




Quoting Jetstar (Reply 8):
The middle bogie is needed to support the center fuel tank when the tank is full



I would have guessed the addition of the bogie would be intended to reduce the psi exerted on runways and taxiways, rather than reduce the loads on the fuselage.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
Don't know on the DC-10, but the centre bogie on the 340 pair/bogie (depending on version) does not have brakes IIRC.

Exactly why I asked the question.Also Is the Centre Gear Unloaded under normal conditions on the DC10-30.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
SFOMB67
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:42 pm

I'm guessing there are brakes on a DC10-30 center gear, as I have a recollection that the parking brakes have to be off during fueling, or the plane can suffer structural damage.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
ha763
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
I would have guessed the addition of the bogie would be intended to reduce the psi exerted on runways and taxiways, rather than reduce the loads on the fuselage.

Reducing the pavement loading is exactly why the DC-10-30/-40 have the center gear. The higher weight of the DC-10-30/-40 means larger or more tires were needed to make sure the aircraft's pavement loading was acceptable for the airports it would fly to.

And here's a bit of information for all of you, the DC-10 main gear tires are bigger than the 747 main gear tires.
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:47 pm

Ahhh...

Okay, you can retract the CLG on the A340-300 but NOT on the A340-600... I presume that this is because the A346 has a double bogie...

It can remain deactivated for 1000 cycles. Any more than this and it must be hydraulically isolated. It is reccomended to isolate hydraulically after 200 cycles.

First you deflate the HP portion of the CLG Shock Absorber.

After this, if the wheels still touch the ground, you must remove both the wheels. Ensure you Re-install the axle bolt so that you can re-install the wheels at a later date.

You disable the bogie pitch trim system and also ensure that the landing gear downlocks are installed on the MLG and NLG.

You then pressuires the green hyd system and put the landing gear lever into the up position, this will raise the CLG and lock it into position. You then put in place the the CLG Uplock (this inhibits the landing gear from extension). And put the gear handle into the down position.

Close up all the gear doors, remove pins etc etc...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 21):
I'm guessing there are brakes on a DC10-30 center gear, as I have a recollection that the parking brakes have to be off during fueling, or the plane can suffer structural damage.

You are correct and this holds true for the MD-11 as well. The parking brake must be off during fueling AND loading/unloading. Part of the capt.'s exterior safety check is to verify that the mains are chocked and the interior safety check confirms the parking brake is released.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 21):
I have a recollection that the parking brakes have to be off during fueling, or the plane can suffer structural damage.



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Part of the capt.'s exterior safety check is to verify that the mains are chocked and the interior safety check confirms the parking brake is released.

Interesting Info.Those chocks better be doing their Job well.Especially on a Freighter.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):
Interesting Info.Those chocks better be doing their Job well.Especially on a Freighter.

Normally when on stand the park brake should remain off and chocks should be used. However when fuelling, i've seen the park brake used and the chocks removed from the wheels slightly as the aircraft will tend to roll backwards (on flat ground) as the shock absorber decreases in length with the weight of the aircraft. This means if you leave the chocks in and upload 100 tonnes of fuel, you're gonna stress the tyre too much on the chock and you can end up having to replace tyres and such.

I doubt keeping the park brake on will stress the aircraft...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
FDXmech
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 14):
Center landing gear over-ride control. No Mx personel needed like on the 340.

To raise the center gear on the ground is a mx function.
The mechanism is in the right main wheel well. Of course the strut must be depressurized prior to raising the gear off the ground and then repressurized (once the wheels are off the ground) to keep the strut fully extended in the wheelwell so the tires dont interfere with the center gear doors.

The switch you show prevents the center gear from extending once the gear is already retracted. It doesn't, in itself, raise the center gear.

In NORMAL, the center gear extends and retracts with the other gear.
In UP, the center gear remains retracted regardless of gear handle position.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 16):
That is very interesting. Do you need special authorization to do this?

No. Usually the MEL will call out if the center gear needs to be deactivated. Or sometimes an engineering authorization. You don't see the gear on a -30 deactivated very often and is usually a priority to get it fixed.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Exactly why I asked the question.Also Is the Centre Gear Unloaded under normal conditions on the DC10-30.
regds

Yes. The center gear is under load when on the ground, even when the aircraft is unloaded.
There is a pressure gauge on the center strut which during a walk around check shouldn't go below 1000psi when plane is empty.

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 21):
I'm guessing there are brakes on a DC10-30 center gear, as I have a recollection that the parking brakes have to be off during fueling, or the plane can suffer structural damage.

Yes it can cause damage. The damage though is mainly to the gear itself.
The center gear like the nose gear is slightly canted wheels forward. As the plane is loaded and fueled, the struts compress as the weight of the plane increases. Most planes not a problem, but the center gear strut being on an angle must be allowed to move forward as the strut compresses or aft as the plane is unloaded.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 27):

How do you prevent the tyres from "pinching" the chocks?
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 28):
How do you prevent the tyres from "pinching" the chocks?

On our DC-10 and MD-11, the center gear is not chocked for the same reason as not setting the brakes. When ready for pushback the tug driver will pull the a/c forward (or aft) to take pressure off the chocks so they can be removed.
FDXMech will confirm this too.
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 29):
When ready for pushback the tug driver will pull the a/c forward (or aft) to take pressure off the chocks so they can be removed.

But still, the chocks will probable have pinched the tyres... not a major occourance i'm sure but i think it might cause some problems for sure!
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:59 pm

Can Refuelling & Cargo loading be done simultaneously on a DC10 Freighter.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
FDXmech
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 30):
But still, the chocks will probable have pinched the tyres... not a major occourance i'm sure but i think it might cause some problems for sure!

The center gear isn't chocked.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 31):
Can Refuelling & Cargo loading be done simultaneously on a DC10 Freighter.
regds

Yes.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
sk909
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):
The bogey wasn't actually needed to support the additional weight of the aircraft. It was needed to allow for greater stopping power (braking action) due to the higher weights... in the event of an aborted takeoff. Helped for landing in the same way.

You are absolutely correct... That was the reason that I was looking for... Actually I just asked my dad, former pilot on the SK DC10-30. And he confirmed the reason for the ekstra bogey. It wasn't to support the ekstra weight, but braking power.
Life's for Living!
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 33):
It wasn't to support the ekstra weight, but braking power.

I'm going to disagree but I'm not saying that it's not a factor at all. Just for a comparison the MD-11 suffers only a small t/o wgt penalty and no ldg wgt penalty with any wheel brake deferred inop however the wgt penalty suffered with the ctr. gr. retracted is enormous for both t/o and ldg.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 33):
It wasn't to support the ekstra weight, but braking power.

I must disagree but do realise that the brakes do play a part. Just for comparison on the MD-11 the wgt penalty you suffer for ANY wheel brake deferred inop is small for t/o and nothing for ldg HOWEVER the penalty you suffer with the ctr. gr. retracted is enormous both for t/o and ldg.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 33):
It wasn't to support the ekstra weight, but braking power.

For some reason this is the third time I've tried to post my reply. Anyone have any ideas why it goes away?
My post was that I still must disagree for the most part because as a comparison I checked the MD-11 limitations and it suffers only a small t/o penalty(wgt) and no ldg penalty for ANY wheel brake being deferred inop HOWEVER the penalty for the ctr. gr. retracted is enormous for both t/o and ldg.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:12 am

i see all three posts!
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 37):
i see all three posts!

That was weird! You can see the time diff between post and I just now see all 3. oh well sorry...CC
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:28 pm

It has the extra "Bogie" so we know it is a male.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:12 pm

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 32):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 31):
Can Refuelling & Cargo loading be done simultaneously on a DC10 Freighter.
regds

Yes

Won't the Shift with Load mvmt on main deck be affected.Are extra chocks used.What clearence between Wheel & chocks existr prior to Refuelling.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 40):
Won't the Shift with Load mvmt on main deck be affected.Are extra chocks used.What clearence between Wheel & chocks existr prior to Refuelling.

No extra chocks are used. Our manual states that the left AND/OR right mains shall be chocked. The chocks are not wedged and I'm sure there is some space but as I posted earlier the tug crew will usually pull the jet up a bit so the chocks may be removed. Any movement due to loading/fueling is compensated for by the jet having a nose gear tether, ballast pallet, weight trailer or sequential loading.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 41):

Is there a Motorised PDUs on the main deck to enable Cargo mvmt or is it Manual on the DC10 Freighters.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):
Is there a Motorised PDUs on the main deck to enable Cargo mvmt or is it Manual on the DC10 Freighters.
regds
MEL

No, it's all done by hand (many hands). The floor has the standard rollers and lock system. The locks clamp onto the rim of the container to prevent movement. All the jets have the same layout....CC
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 43):
All the jets have the same layout....

The Weight & mechanism of the PDUs would count.
So there are no Freighters with Motorised PDUs in Existence.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):
So there are no Freighters with Motorised PDUs in Existence.
regds

All I can speak for is Fedex and none of our jets have a mechanized loader in the jet. I should say that the "loaders" which take the containers from ground level to main cargo deck level are mechanized in that they roll the container from the ground tug , then raised up to a/c cabin level and roll it on to the main cargo deck. From there people push them along the rollers in the floor to the correct position. An MD-11 can be loaded main deck and belly compartments in about 35-45 min.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 45):
An MD-11 can be loaded main deck and belly compartments in about 35-45 min.

Adding Motorised PDUs would speed up the process but add unwanted weight & mechanical complications if u/s.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
lehpron
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
The Dc10-30 could fly with the centre main leg stowed.

I'm sure you meant it could land with the wheel stowed. I would suspect all aircraft could fly without needing their wheels.  Wink
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 46):
Adding motorized PDUs would speed up the process but add unwanted weight & mechanical complications if u/s.

It is my understanding that Fedex bulks out before they max out on weight. Manual rollers are just that, lighter and virtually mtce free= cheaper overall. With the lighter LD containers, PDU's are not necessary.

As a side note, where the A340 have the center gear, there are still provisions for it on the A330 but with blanking plates for doors as seen in:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Unmuth-VAP


versus:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography


There is no ctr fuel tank in its place. There is just an empty void that you could ballroom dance in. It is the same main gear with a "shortening mechanism". The gear has to be a certain dimension to fit the largest 330 engines for ground clearance and yet shorten to fit into the given hole to accommodate the center gear on the 340. It shortens by about 10 inches, if memory serves.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The Extra Bogie On DC10-30?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 48):
It is my understanding that Fedex bulks out before they max out on weight

That's not an entirely correct statement. If you're assumming this big jet is full to the ceiling with featherweight boxes you're wrong. When we leave freight behind you can bet the jet will be close to max ZFW. The containers are packed very efficiently and there's not many spaces. Day in day out we will fly at heavier wgts than the pax jets.

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