julesmusician
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Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:02 am

For pilots, would be pilots and anyone else here is the problem:

You are approaching the airport in a large airliner. At the final stage of flap deployment, your flaps go to 30 degrees and this is acknowledged by the instruments. As they reach 30 degrees the aircraft starts to roll to the right with no input from yourself. The aircraft is on autopilot, but it disengages as it cannot maintain a level flight.

What would you do next?

The reason for this will become clear soon!

J
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
wing
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:26 am

The one of the first things I learned when I started flying was when you do something and the airplane starts acting funny,"undo" whatever you did.

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
What would you do next?

Fly the airplane.Take the airplane under control,establish a safe flight path,discontinue the approach if necessary.Once the airplane safely under control start dealing with the problem and compleate the necessary checklist items,prepare for the approach and brief it,call Chief F/A brief her/him.

Land safely,compleate the paperworks go have a beer ....  Smile
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RichardPrice
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:30 am

Pull the ejector handle......
 
HT1000
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 1):
The one of the first things I learned when I started flying was when you do something and the airplane starts acting funny,"undo" whatever you did.

Not necessarily true in case of asymmetric flap extension . Retracting the flaps to the previous position could increase the asymmetry and things could get worse ...
Few Were Born With It. Even Fewer Know What To Do With It.
 
2H4
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:45 am




Quoting HT1000 (Reply 3):
Not necessarily true in case of asymmetric flap extension



Well of course there is no universial asymmetric flap procedure, but the procedure Wing desribed applies to more than a few aircraft types.




2H4


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A319XFW
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:50 am

And there is the asymetric brake (slat for sure, not sure about flaps?) Some 4 letter abbreviation which I can never remember (ASSD?), so that should stop it before it gets too bad.
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:59 am

leave what ive done alone abandon approach pull up the gear retract flaps one stage, if it helps go around for another go if it gets worse put them down to 30 trim as much as i can for left rudder and half left airleron.
then turn the way the aircraft is banking most and fly away from the airport and away from all towns.
check the manuals to see if anything can be done. if yes do it and if gives negaative effect undo it.
Declare emergency and try a landing.

that might not be the best solution but im tired and not thinking straight

rgds --james--
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
The reason for this will become clear soon!

If you saying asymmetrical flaps it won't happen. Aircraft has sensors that match the RH to LH set of flaps and if they are not in complete agreement, the flaps won't move. I think it reads to less then 1 deg of split...!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

Once the flaps are locked out due to assymetry, they can be neither extended nor retracted untill landing. The amount by which they are allowed to be assymetrical is minimal and is less than one degree, even one degree of assymetry could cause a catastropic failure...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
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PositiveClimb
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 5):
And there is the asymetric brake (slat for sure, not sure about flaps?) Some 4 letter abbreviation which I can never remember (ASSD?), so that should stop it before it gets too bad.

As far as I know it is a three letter abbreviation (at least in Airbus' terminology): WTB - Wing tip brake. This brake locks the whole driving shaft for the flaps as soon as an asymmetrie between both sides is detected.
If I remember correctly, Kaddyuk is right, in case the WTB is locked the flaps can't be extended/retracted anymore.

Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin
A380 - love at first flight!
 
A319XFW
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting PositiveClimb (Reply 9):

Yes, they are called that, but I think it's the system (or the end box) that has got the 4 letter abbreviation. It's going to bug me now until I can check it on Monday!!
I should remember but I just can't! And I've even worked on the darn things!
I should keep my Aircraft Familirization course notes at home and not at work, as it'll be in there! Butmy excuse is that it's getting too late here Big grin
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:34 am

That is why when aircraft experience a flap assymetry, they must return to either the airport of departure or a suitable alternate because the flaps are unable to move at all... Its a safety feature, if there is a problem with the flaps you wont want to move them at all!
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
wing
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting HT1000 (Reply 3):
Not necessarily true in case of asymmetric flap extension . Retracting the flaps to the previous position could increase the asymmetry and things could get worse ...

This is not an assimetry flap situation.The thread says "

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
your flaps go to 30 degrees and this is acknowledged by the instruments.

So from this sentence I understand flaps deployed to position 30 normally.If there has been an assimetry position the flap indicator needles should be positioned apart from each other and stop moving,not indicating flap 30 normally.
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PositiveClimb
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 10):
Yes, they are called that, but I think it's the system (or the end box) that has got the 4 letter abbreviation. It's going to bug me now until I can check it on Monday!!

So, let me try to save your weekend....

Another abbreviation for the whole asymmetry-detection unit I remember having heard is APPU - Asymmetry Position Pick-Off Unit

Maybe this was the one you had in mind?

If not... Keep thinking  Wink  thumbsup 


Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin
A380 - love at first flight!
 
Ralgha
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
If you saying asymmetrical flaps it won't happen. Aircraft has sensors that match the RH to LH set of flaps and if they are not in complete agreement, the flaps won't move. I think it reads to less then 1 deg of split...!!

Depends on the airplane, so, um, no.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 8):
Once the flaps are locked out due to assymetry, they can be neither extended nor retracted untill landing

Again, depends on the airplane. BZZZZ!

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 8):
even one degree of assymetry could cause a catastropic failure...

Not so much.

Answer to the original question:

BUST OUT THE QRH.

[Edited 2006-01-06 23:51:44]
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EMBQA
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):
Depends on the airplane, so, um, no.

Umm... Isn't it a requirement of Part 121 aircraft...???
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
2H4
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:26 am




Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):

Depends on the airplane, so, um, no.



Thanks, Ralgha. It's amazing that more people don't discuss aircraft systems/procedures issues with this in mind!




2H4


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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:43 am

Depends on the a/c. I've always been taught to "return to the last STABLE config. and then run the FLAP DISAG (a/c specific) chklist.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 12):
So from this sentence I understand flaps deployed to position 30 normally.If there has been an assimetry position the flap indicator needles should be positioned apart from each other and stop moving,not indicating flap 30 normally.

What if a section of the flaps broke free from the mounts? Wouldn't the indicators match readings? The side of the plane with good flaps would produce lift and the side with missing flaps would produce less lift.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):
Again, depends on the airplane. BZZZZ!

Thanks for the attitude... like i didnt already understand that point... I'm talking about modern jet aircraft (A320/A330/A340/747) etc etc

If I were to list all the possible events, it would take all day to cover them...

 banghead 
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 18):
What if a section of the flaps broke free from the mounts? Wouldn't the indicators match readings? The side of the plane with good flaps would produce lift and the side with missing flaps would produce less lift.

This is somewhat similar to what happened to the DC-10 at Chicago. The slats on the damaged wing retracted but the pilots were unaware of the fact.

I think since then further redundancies have been built into the sensor systems.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wing
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 18):
What if a section of the flaps broke free from the mounts? Wouldn't the indicators match readings? The side of the plane with good flaps would produce lift and the side with missing flaps would produce less lift.

But it still not be named "flap assimetry". That specicific definition describes the uneven flap position of the 2 sides of the wing with a selected flap configuration.

You extend your flaps normally and some part of it seperated or damaged after that,its another story.
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
Grbld
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
...the aircraft starts to roll to the right with no input from yourself. The aircraft is on autopilot, but it disengages as it cannot maintain a level flight.

This is not one of those Twilight Zone things where there's a monster on your left wing, is it?
 
A319XFW
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:42 pm

Quoting PositiveClimb (Reply 13):

APPU!! That's the one! Knew it started with and "A" Big grin
Should have remembered, as it's happened a few times that people thought that I'm responsible for it, when I'm not!
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Goldenshield
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 15):
Umm... Isn't it a requirement of Part 121 aircraft...???

No such regulation exists in part 25, 121, or 125.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 18):
What if a section of the flaps broke free from the mounts?

We had an Airbus that had an actuator fail (I believe) and the flap came up on one side while on app to ldg. They flew the jet about 150nm to a better airport with full aileron deflection to a safe ldg. Both guys had their hands full.


Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 18):
Wouldn't the indicators match readings?

I doubt it considering that MOST jets have a redundancy in the system that requires more than one circuit to be made in order to give an accurate flaps/slats indication. And every jet is different so no one here can describe any one system and say that's the way it works on every jet.
 
777236ER
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:05 am

You're talking about the G-CPER incident? Smoke in the cockpit, resulting in an emergency landing at Heathrow, with control difficulties?

The MX guys had left off flap panels 666AR and 666BR from the right wing, resulting in control difficulties once the flaps were extended beyond ~20 deg. The crew needed 75% left aileron to counteract the roll when the flaps were extended at 30 deg.

With the (unrelated) smoke in the cockpit, the crew decided to continue the approach, with a higher Vref.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
julesmusician
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:25 am

oh you have to go spoil it  Smile in fact what i was trying to ascertain if there was a standard process for pilots that you would all do the same thing if this happened. I am not sure there is, and from the accident report it appeared that there was no instruction to retract the flaps nor did the pilots do so but continued to battle with the roll to the right - I would have thought that returning it to a stable condition was the first thing to do?
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 26):
You're talking about the G-CPER incident?

What type of aircraft was G-CPER?
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:44 am

Thank you very much for the link. This story is very interesting to me because I work in a heavy maintenance shop, although for the CRJ 200.

I learned firsthand how sensitive the flaps are to airflow and the effects of lift dissymetry. During this particular HMV, the flaps were removed and opened to facilitate inspections and other mx. After the HMV, I rode on the aircraft on its post mx test flight. When the flaps were fully extended and the aircraft slowed, it wanted to roll left and nearly 50% right aileron trim was required to keep it flying straight. The culprit of this problem was some messy sealant around the leading edge panels of the left flap that protruded into the airstream, disrupting the airflow around the flap. To fix the problem, the sealant was sanded down so it was flush with the skin and any bare metal from the sanding was painted. The result was an aircraft that flew straight with flaps fully extended. I am new to aircraft mx, so I was very surprised how something that seemed so trivial could cause such a problem to performance.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
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zeke
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 27):
I would have thought that returning it to a stable condition was the first thing to do?

One does not stuff around with smoke or fire present, esp after swiss air.

If you had mentioned smoke or fire in your original post, you would have had a more uniform response, smoke or fire has a high priority over asymmetric flap.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 28):
What type of aircraft was G-CPER


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MEL
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AeroVodochody
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
What would you do next?

aileron and rudder trim?
Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
 
XXXX10
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:21 am

At flaps 30 you would be close to landing (about 5 miles?) if you could maintain wings level by control wheel imputs would it be safer to continue the approach?
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:54 pm

Uhh..... bank the airplane to the desired heading. If the flaps are confirmed down 30 degrees then why is everyone worrying about the flaps, can instruments be actually wrong? Wow! At that point you can't raise the flaps because you will loose altitude quickly, if using left aileron doesn't bring the aircraft back to the runway heading you might consider using more power on the right engine and slow the left engine and use rudder. If all fails, hit the ejection button.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 35):
, can instruments be actually wrong?

Yes.

Cross check, cross check, cross check, or die.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 35):
, At that point you can't raise the flaps because you will loose altitude quickly

Increase planed approach speed to compensate

[Edited 2006-01-13 05:05:37]

[Edited 2006-01-13 05:06:02]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
troubleshooter
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:05 pm

What about too much internal leakage in one (or more) spoiler actuator?

I have heard about some events on the B737NG. The aircraft starts to roll without any aileron input and with spoilers down and symmetrical flaps. Investigations were started and they found one very hot flight spoiler actuator. The internal leak rate was too high and the air forces sucked the spoiler panel out of the wing causing the aircraft roll to one side.

But to know this would not help the pilot in this situation during flight... Big grin
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Troubleshooter (Reply 37):
The internal leak rate was too high and the air forces sucked the spoiler panel out of the wing causing the aircraft roll to one side.

I've had a leaking spoiler actuator on the 727 years ago but it only "floats" which means the air flow will pull it up only enough to give you a slight aggravating roll that's more of a nuisance than a problem.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 38):
I've had a leaking spoiler actuator on the 727 years ago but it only "floats" which means the air flow will pull it up only enough to give you a slight aggravating roll that's more of a nuisance than a problem.

Is there a down position mechanical lock.What about Hydraulic loss.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:23 am

Full power, run to the galley, slurp up as much vodka as possible, punch the unruly passenger, grab the hot flight attendent and then....

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 2):
Pull the ejector handle......

All in a day's work.  bigthumbsup 
Crye me a river
 
SlamClick
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
The reason for this will become clear soon!

Well, it's been a week. Rather too late for "soon" so how about eventually?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:18 am

I seem to recall a Dragonair A320 landing at Kai Tak with flap problems - possibly assymetry, I can't remember. After severe control difficulties and three aborted landings the pilot declared that he would do a 180 and land on the last attempt. After that, fuel would run out and they would ditch. There are photos of the aircraft touching down then immediately plouging across the grass, but amazingly being straightened out again on the parallel taxiway with minimal damage to the aircraft.

Maybe someone here can have a search for the accident report.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:30 pm

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 42):
There are photos of the aircraft touching down then immediately plouging across the grass, but amazingly being straightened out again on the parallel taxiway with minimal damage to the aircraft.

Anyone having those Pics/Links.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
B-HOP
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RE: Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?

Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:17 am

CX Flyboy: -

The HKCAD did indeed publish an accident report and is available on the top floor on the HK Central Libary, don't know where it disappeared to though.

Kev
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