speedracer1407
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:19 pm

Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:47 pm

This might be a question that has an obvious answer, but I'll ask it anyway since it seems that layman common sense rarely applies to the complicated world of aviation.

Are pilots of 2 or 3 person flight crews trained in the sims to respond to emergencies in which he or she is the only pilot left to fly the plane? Seems like this kind of training would be sensible, but how far does the training go? Are pilots trained to deal with this situation during a mechanical emergency? Do procedures change (simplified?) to account for the extreme workload of a single pilot scrambling in a 2 or 3 flightcrew environment? Thanks for any replies.

O
Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
 
speedracer1407
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:29 pm

DOH! Ok, the ONE time I felt confident that no one had posted a similar question recently, it turns out that Julesmusician has asked a different, but somewhat related question. If moderaters choose to deleat this thread, I'll just post the question on Julesmusician's. Otherwise, I'm still curious about my original question, which hasn't yet addressed specifically on the other thread.

O
Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:37 pm

To answer your question....Yes, it is practiced. No, the procedures aren't changed. There is nothing that I can't reach from the left seat, so if the FO is incapacitated, there is no real problem.
Fly fast, live slow
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
There is nothing that I can't reach from the left seat, so if the FO is incapacitated, there is no real problem.

If the situation is reversed, i.e. the Captain is incapacitated, and there's no tiller on the FO's side, presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later".
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:00 am

There is a an old story about a captain dying not long after takeoff and the first officer returned the plane to the field. Around the crew lounge the following week it was the topic of many conversations that ran along these lines: The captains were all surprised that they had a copilot at the company who knew how to fly an airplane. The first officers wondered how the guy could tell the captain was dead.

In some sim evolutions I've done "subtle incapacitation" training. It would just be a routine approach but the instructor would pass one of the pilots a note that told him to stop responding at some point. It was really fun. I loved playing the pilot whose mind had just shut down!

As far as steering without a tiller, the first jet I flew, the training captain made me taxi all the way to the final turn toward the jetway with the pedals. Then he'd take over and steer it to the gate. If we parked on an open ramp somewhere he would make me park it without a tiller. Unless a fairly tight turn is required, it can be done. It did require a bit of planning.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
and there's no tiller on the FO's side, presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later".

In a situation as you've described I don't think you're going to taxi to the ramp so it's not a concern. The F/O brings the a/c to a stop on the runway and the emerg./rescue vehicles will meet you there. After all are cared for the jet will be towed to the ramp/gate.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:53 am

Well, I didn't really expect anyone to taxi to the gate in those circumstances, I was just thinking of clearing the runway.  Smile

I guess if it can be done with the rudder pedals it's not such a big deal, especially if there's a convenient high-speed turn-off, I suppose.

Thanks, guys.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later".

Considering the Aircraft got back in such a situation.Taxying back to the gate would be the last thing on the Single pilots mind  Smile
Some Aircraft do have tillers on both sides,then theres always the rudder pedals with restricted steering angle & Differential braking.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CcrlR
Posts: 2183
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:24 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:46 am

I remember one time where there was a post about a Saab S340 First officer who had to make a emergency landing when his captain had a medical problem, but he ended up landing the aircraft safely and the captain was ok. I would personally think it would be the same for a heavy too and they would be able to land and taxi off if they sit in the left seat.
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
If we parked on an open ramp somewhere he would make me park it without a tiller.

wouldn't that over stress the nose gear?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 9):
wouldn't that over stress the nose gear?

No, why would it? It just means you have a smaller nose wheel deflection resulting in a wider turn radius.
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
If the situation is reversed, i.e. the Captain is incapacitated, and there's no tiller on the FO's side, presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later

would a FO ever ask someone to clear the Captain out the way and he would take over from the left seat? or is it not worth it?
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
would a FO ever ask someone to clear the Captain out the way and he would take over from the left seat? or is it not worth it?

Not only is is not worth it, it is making things more complicated than necessary. There is no problem with landing the aircraft from the right seat. It is done regularly. Keep things as simple and familiar as possible.

An incapacitated crew member is an emergency. After landing, you will probably get all the ground support you need.
Proud OOTSK member
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 2:52 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:28 am

What happens if you lose the FE?
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:33 am

Cabin crews are trained to secure an incapacitated pilot (the gestual is quite interesting by the way) and keep him away from the controls.

I'm shocked that you people would just let the poor guy die on his seat !

Going back to the question asked by the thread starter, yes airline pilots do get that sort of training.
One of the favored scenarios is a pilot incapacitation following a rapid decompression ! very spectacular !

Some airlines advise the remaining pilot to request one FA -or a deadheading - aircrew to assist with the checklist reading.
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17055
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Hea

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 13):
What happens if you lose the FE?

Getting coffee takes longer.

Sorry couldn't resist... Big grin No offense to current or past F/Es intended.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 9):
wouldn't that over stress the nose gear

No.Not with wide radius turn.

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 13):
What happens if you lose the FE

Interesting to hear the Answer.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
CCA
Posts: 769
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:29 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 13):
What happens if you lose the FE?

Like any passenger or crew member you would asses the situation and whether you are going to divert or seek onboard medical attention or both.

Once that decision has been made, the F/O (depending on company SOPs) will set up the F/E panel for landing prior to descending, i.e. the fuel panel and pressurization, basically put things in a position that won't require you to get out of your seat again, i.e. all the packs on, on high flow, set the landing altitude in the pressuization controller, all fuel tank pumps on (tanks with fuel in them) and then run the decent checklist, you could probably stay in the F/E seat until 15 or 20,000' at which point you could go back to your normal duties.
P1 in A330, A340, A346, B742, B744, B748.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting CCA (Reply 17):
the F/O (depending on company SOPs) will set up the F/E panel for landing prior to descending, i.e. the fuel panel and

Are the Pilots trained on the FE job too.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17055
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Are the Pilots trained on the FE job too.

I think most (?) F/Es are pilots, and many pilots have been F/Es, so there is a lot of knowledge shared.

Also, the pilots would need the training to ensure the can manage an F/E out situation.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
I think most (?) F/Es are pilots, and many pilots have been F/Es, so there is a lot of knowledge shared.

Also, the pilots would need the training to ensure the can manage an F/E out situation.

Well, in some countries (America for example), most of the F/E's are junior/trainee pilots, and are simply there to keep an eye on things.
However, in the UK (with BA atleast) the F/E's were people from engineering, who applied for the F/E job after a certain number of years working on aircrarfts, the F/E's were trained to know the basics of how to fly the plane aswell as do the F/E job, so technically, the F/E could fly the plane.
But I don't think the pilots were trained to use the F/E panel.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 20):
Well, in some countries (America for example), most of the F/E's are junior/trainee pilots, and are simply there to keep an eye on things.

You are correct that most F/Es are JUNIOR pilots since, based on seniority, that is the lowest seniority seat but all of our new hire pilots are already very experienced with some previous jet experience behind them be it military or civilian. They don't "just keep an eye on things" they are a very integral part of a 3 man crew that has a very important job as well as an extra set of eyes up front. There was a time when the airlines had professional F/Es that were not pilots but often mechanics but that went away totally here as far as I know. Rarely have I seen a pilot that hasn't been an F/E at least once but even if he hasn't every oral you have in school and especially if it's a type rating oral exam will spend a whole lot of time on the engineers panel. You may not know it as well as an F/E will but you WILL know it.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6007
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:36 am

F/Es in Cathay are just that....F/Es. They are not pilots, but are on the same seniority list. They are guys with vast amounts of experience and a very valuable addition to the flightdeck. We did have some F/Es 'learn' to fly a few years ago when we retired the Tristars and pax 747 Classics. They joined the cadets in Adelaide and did a full ATPL course down there.

As for single pilot ops, we would divert immediately to the nearest SUITABLE airport, which the PF would be happy with. As for removal of the incapacitated pilot, it would really depend on the situation. With an unconscious pilot and an arrival within say 30mins, I would leave the person in the seat. If we had longer, I would search for a doctor to come up. If the person was flailing his arms and legs about, then I would electrically move their seat back and turn off the electrics then get help to remove them from the cockpit.

We are also taught to remove a pilot who may be partially incapacitated. If he/she comes back later and starts giving you instructions, we consider them to still be incapacitated. You just don't know whether they will go mental or start giving you false info. In these cases we would seriously consider sending them back into the cabin to sit, even if they seem to be coherent. Things like this are dealt with on a case by case basis.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:29 pm

Cosmic,

Do you guys have a lot of F/Es on the other end of the spectrum that are "flowbacks"? They hit 60 and for whatever reason they don't retire but fly sidesaddle for a couple years?
DMI
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 23):
Do you guys have a lot of F/Es on the other end of the spectrum that are "flowbacks"?

hello PilotPip,
I can't tell you the exact numbers or percentages but yes a number of guys that turn 60 and don't want to retire will go back to DC-10 or in somecases 727 F/E. Of course you retain your senority number so you will go back a pretty senior guy in the "back seat".
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 20):
However, in the UK (with BA atleast) the F/E's were people from engineering, who applied for the F/E job after a certain number of years working on aircrarfts

Thats how its out here.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17055
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
I can't tell you the exact numbers or percentages but yes a number of guys that turn 60 and don't want to retire will go back to DC-10 or in somecases 727 F/E. Of course you retain your senority number so you will go back a pretty senior guy in the "back seat".

So do you get a lot of "back seat driving" or has CRM taken care of that?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Are the Pilots trained on the FE job too.

I used to teach B-727. We taught exactly the same ground school syllabus for new-hire initial 2nd officer (flight engineer) /upgrade to 1st officer / upgrade to captain / transition from another type airplane. In most new-hire classes there would also be upgrading or transitioning students. These guys all sat in the back row ("buzzards' roost") and could either be the instructor's worst nightmare or greatest training aid. I made it a point to find allies back there. All attended recurrent together. Of course the simulator part of the training is seat-dependant.

There are good reasons for this. There is only one way to operate the fuel system or the electrical system and that is by means of their subpanels on the 2nd officer's panel. I believe that upgrades even took the systems portion of their orals at the engineer panel or mockup. Furthermore, while each seat position had its duties and flows, normal, non-normal and emergency checklists are all multi-crew tasks.

At some point late in the ground school cycle we would put on a play with experienced crews sitting at the panel mockups running all the normal and a few non-normal checklists so the new troops could get a good feel for who calls for the checklist and when, who reads who responds and so on.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
I can't tell you the exact numbers or percentages but yes a number of guys that turn 60 and don't want to retire will go back to DC-10 or in somecases 727 F/E. Of course you retain your senority number so you will go back a pretty senior guy in the "back seat".

I would suspect that it isn't so common as it used to be. For one thing, fewer planes with a flight engineer seat to bid. For another, with the economic state of the US airline industry I think "take the money and run" is the prevailing wisdom. Wouldn't it suck if you could have locked-in a retirement at age sixty but you decided to ride sidesaddle for a couple more years, the company goes tango-uniform and you get locked out in Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

I came back off medical leave once and current policy was that since you'd missed bid opportunities you could "bump in" to any seat your seniority would then hold. I reckoned that I'd like to go fly first officer on the few 727s we had left. Easy job, right? Captain has all the responsibility and the engineer does all the work. Life is good and the pay ain't bad. Wrong! Everyone loved that airplane. The 1st officers could all hold captain on any other equipment on the property and the 2nd officers were all over-60 bidbacks. I couldn't have held the three-holer as a flight attendant with my ten years or so seniority.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
I would suspect that it isn't so common as it used to be.

As I said I can't give you percentages or numbers but I still see a bunch of the old guys that I flew with as an f/o that have gone back to the DC-10 F/E and I've got a friend who took a LCA F/E position in the 727 (tough job!) I would have to see a DC-10 bid pack to get the real numbers but I'm sure most junior F/Es hate to see themselves move back a number or so each month. Why guys do it is quite varied. Some are waiting for the new contract to be signed, some may want to keep the health benefits a while longer and others just want to keep on flying so there is no one big reason. As the co. phases out the 10 this option will eventually dry up. We had one great old fellow that had flown P-47s and P-51s in WWII, F-86s in Korea, flew with us till 60 and then went to F/E till he was about 80!! He loved it and had great energy and health. I hope I'm that lucky!
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17055
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 28):
We had one great old fellow that had flown P-47s and P-51s in WWII, F-86s in Korea, flew with us till 60 and then went to F/E till he was about 80!!

Not to hijack the topic, but this brings up the point about the US mandatory retirement age of 60, which seems young to me. Chuck Yeager flew well into his 80s. On the other hand I have seen 40 year olds in terrible health. I say give them ever more frequent physicals but keep them flying if they want. I would think 40 years of experience are worth more when the fecal matter hits the rotary air impeller than Nintendo reflexes.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:23 am




Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 29):
I say give them ever more frequent physicals but keep them flying if they want.



Indeed. It seems to be working pretty well for the part 91 corporate world.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 29):
but this brings up the point about the US mandatory retirement age of 60

Well, since you mention it: I remember but I cannot confirm it through Google - there was one move to scrap the age-60 rule in about 1996. I remember that because a very good friend had to retire in '95 and thought he might get to come back. He didn't. Anyway, what I recall was that the Supreme Court upheld the age-60 retirement because of arguments that "subtle mental incapacitation" could set in after that age.

I really, really want to find that ruling, if it exists.

Big reason is that I'll bet that Supreme Court panel that ruled that had an average age FAR beyond 60 and they therefore should have recused themselves.

Anyone know more about that?

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 28):
F/E position in the 727 (tough job!)

Darn right. Much work. No fun. Like twin-Beech single pilot but you don't get to fly.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 29):
Not to hijack the topic, but this brings up the point about the US mandatory retirement age of 60, which seems young to me. Chuck Yeager flew well into his 80s. On the other hand I have seen 40 year olds in terrible health. I say give them ever more frequent physicals but keep them flying if they want.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
Indeed. It seems to be working pretty well for the part 91 corporate world.

Let me add a few little differences though, not only between corp. boys and the airlines but also the alirlines of years ago to muddy the water of the age 60 rule.
1st. most guys like me would say yes if the option were there to "go all the way to 65" or retire at any piont in between with full pension. I would go another yr. or two.
2nd. the schedules get more and more creative every month and as you get older the consequences of multi-timezone travel and flip flopping of day/night flights have a bigger and bigger affect. With the computer programs they're using today you get just a little less rest and a little more flying and it's all legal and they don't care if you're 45 or 65. All the physicals in the world won't show the stress and strain that a 14 day trip around the world trip has month after month after.. I can definitely tell you that the changes in our trips in my 23 yrs. at Fedex are extreme and more and more demanding. If I'm 65 and some executive in some tall office bldg and I have a heart attack the EMS guys will arrive in 8 min and save my life. If you have that same heart attack in the hotel in Manila you're a dead man.
Most of the corp. folks that I know (and I flew for a couple of fortune 500 cos. as well as a couple of not so great cos.) agree their flying is usually much easier day in day out. Like Yeager I could fly too till 80 if I could pick and choose when and where. Even my friend who went till 80 had people saying it was time to go long before he did.
Just a few extra thoughts.
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 21):
You are correct that most F/Es are JUNIOR pilots since

Ah thanks, I wasn't sure if they were junior or trainee pilots.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):
Thats how its out here.
regds

I personaly believe that that way is better, as F/E's can clear an aircraft fit to fly while the pilots can't, and the F/E's are ex engineers, so they can spot anything wrong if someone else doesn't.


Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
Stoicescu
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:39 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:46 am

I'm sure I will get flamed for this and is no problem I accept constructive criticism. But how about us young folks? If the mandatory retirement will go up it will be harder to get a job and also harder to advance into the right seat.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting Stoicescu (Reply 34):
If the mandatory retirement will go up it will be harder to get a job and also harder to advance into the right seat.

Personally I give you a no-flame guarantee on that. You are absolutely right. Nothing airline-hopefuls resent more than some old coot turning sixty and continuing to camp out on top the seniority list! I used to say that if you could poison the wells at Lake Tahoe on any Christmas week every seniority list in the country would move up.

That is also relevant to the real-world economics at work in this issue. The company, given the choice between keeping a really senior (read maxed-out in paygrade) pilot or hiring some young guy possibly onto a B-scale well, I don't have to tell you where the bean counters weigh in on this issue.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 33):
I personaly believe that that way is better, as F/E's can clear an aircraft fit to fly while the pilots can't, and the F/E's are ex engineers, so they can spot anything wrong if someone else doesn't.

While that might be true just remember you can't have the F/E doing maint. and the front end crew going into crew rest can you? This opens a big can of worms that would be bigger than both of us. Should the F/E work or oversee maint and then get min crew rest before launching out again? I don't think you see the complexity here but I understand your point. Why not carry a "crew chief" too?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
Like twin-Beech single pilot but you don't get to fly.

Hey I'd like to take an ole beech around the pattern a time or two again.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 26):
So do you get a lot of "back seat driving" or has CRM taken care of that?

Sorry Starlionblue, I didn't see your post till now...Being in the MD-11 I don't fly with those guys but from What I've heard and yes I have had some very senior capt.s as my RFO so I will say most guys are pretty good, just do their job and everybody stays happy. It's not a problem.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:20 pm

Quoting Stoicescu (Reply 34):
If the mandatory retirement will go up it will be harder to get a job and also harder to advance into the right seat.

Out here due to shortage of Pilots.The Retirement age has been relaxed to 65yrs subject to stringent & more complex medical & Regulatory requirements.
Things will be regularised once the Demand recedes.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
speedracer1407
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:04 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
Big reason is that I'll bet that Supreme Court panel that ruled that had an average age FAR beyond 60 and they therefore should have recused themselves.

I take it that you're not a fan of the age 60 retirement rule. I always figured it made sense since subtle mental incapacitation can indeed creep up around that age. It did with my grandfather; he offered to pay for my rather expensive college, then called up out of the blue mid semester and demanded that I find a cheaper school. Very unlike him, but 8 years later, he was diagnosed with alzheimers (sp?), which was STILL technically in its early stages. I had to change schools, but the point is that certainly mental acuity is paramount in a complex, technical environment where small mistakes can have fatal consequences. I donno, maybe there are some good, well researched arguments out there that refute my hunch, as there often are. I'd like to know as long as this thread is meandering anyway.


O
Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 36):
While that might be true just remember you can't have the F/E doing maint. and the front end crew going into crew rest can you? This opens a big can of worms that would be bigger than both of us. Should the F/E work or oversee maint and then get min crew rest before launching out again? I don't think you see the complexity here but I understand your point. Why not carry a "crew chief" too?

Not 100% sure what you mean by that, but i'll got with what I think you meant
I didn't mean that they work in the hanger and fly, I meant that he/she could see anything wrong with the aircraft on the pre-flight walk around if someone else didn't.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 40):
I meant that he/she could see anything wrong with the aircraft on the pre-flight walk around if someone else didn't.

OK, I understand. I was thinking of an old fellow who was the co-pilot and A&P on this corp jet yrs. ago and he would come in from a trip , work on the plane and then head back out in the a.m. That could never work in a 121 operation.
Keep in mind that the flight crew walk around is a good safety check in itself but when the jet blocks in a mechanic also does a walk around that's more complete than what a pilot will do...CC
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Speedracer1407 (Reply 39):
I take it that you're not a fan of the age 60 retirement rule.

Hard to be a fan of any bureaucratic rule that outweighs all possible realities. Never been a fan of bureaucracy of any stripe.

Personally I was joyous to retire at age 60. I love flying airplanes - especially good ones. I was flying great routes and being paid very well. Despite all that I had to whip myself into uniform and out the door. I absolutely hated my job situation by the end.

I was also a little resentful that the company stole my retirement funds with the US Government being their full and willing partner but that is a story for a beer or two.

Quoting Speedracer1407 (Reply 39):
I always figured it made sense since subtle mental incapacitation can indeed creep up around that age.

Or at any other age. I've known twenty-something pilots with blazing reflexes and full mental capacity and thirty or forty something pilots with ten thousand hours and more and horribly bad judgement. Senility whether due to Alzheimer's or any other cause is not an absolute by any means. Most cases could easily be caught by testing, during regular physicals or "for cause" as needed.

If it is a serious problem then there is no excuse whatever for allowing elected officials to serve after their 60th birthday. What's the worst a pilot could do? Kill a couple hundred people? Of what consequence is that alongside the powers of our own elected officials? For that matter, for the good of the world wouldn't that obligate us to remove ALL leaders who've reached their 60th birthdays, regardless of what their country's rules say?

Doctors cannot be permitted to practice medicine according to your logic.
No one should ever employ an attorney over 60.
R. Buckminster Fuller's buildings should be dismantled for the public safety.
We owe it to our children to deny them any contact with grandparents over 60. Who knows what they might do?

You see why I might have some problem with it?

What makes a doctor safer at 70 than a pilot?
I can answer that question, though it might sound a little cynical. Supply and demand. We have a surplus of pilots and a shortage of doctors, therefore a doctor's mind works better after age 60. It is probably just that simple.

Subtle cynicism DOES set in after age 60.  Smile
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17055
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Stoicescu (Reply 34):
I'm sure I will get flamed for this and is no problem I accept constructive criticism. But how about us young folks? If the mandatory retirement will go up it will be harder to get a job and also harder to advance into the right seat.

Sure, but we're looking at this in all walks of life. Is it right to restrict based on an arbitrary rule and not economics?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 42):
I can answer that question, though it might sound a little cynical. Supply and demand. We have a surplus of pilots and a shortage of doctors, therefore a doctor's mind works better after age 60. It is probably just that simple.

Very good point.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 42):

Subtle cynicism DOES set in after age 60.

I must be ageing prematurely then Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests