G4Doc2004
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Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:26 am

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/16/airplane.fatality/index.html

Anyone have anymore info on this incident? This is awful......
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erj-145mech
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:09 am

It wasn't in IAH, it was in ELP. The aircraft was destined to IAH. It looks as though is was a lack of situational awareness on more than one persons part.
 
BritPilot777
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:46 am

Forever Flight
 
lehpron
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:42 am

seriously, is it possible to simply be too close to the inlet without the engine being anywhere near full, even if it were at say idle? Like if I were right up against the lip of the inlet, compared to the inlet's size, I would be a big profile, yes?
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pilotpip
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:06 am

There's a reason that there are red lines painted on the nacelle that you're not supposed to go past while the engine is running.

On a side note, I've had pieces of cothing and my SIDA badge "sucked" (they didn't come off) while under an F-15. That got my attention.
DMI
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
There's a reason that there are red lines painted on the nacelle that you're not supposed to go past while the engine is running.


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MEL
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:04 pm

Those lines only apply to an engine running at idle. If it is running at full power the danger area is much larger.
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SFOMB67
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:05 pm

This goes to show how dangerous it can be working around "live" aircraft at an airport. I'm only glad I wasn't there to witness this as I'm sure this is something you have nightmares about for a long time.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
pilotpip
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:35 pm

On another fourm I'm a member of, one of the members said he was a good friend of this mechanic. He was the guy's personal mechanic and just performed an annual on his 172. It was sad to read. Yet another reminder that those of us out on the ramp have perhaps the most dangerous jobs in aviation. Be careful out there everybody.
DMI
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Those lines only apply to an engine running at idle. If it is running at full power the danger area is much larger

Agreed.Isn't that area denoted by a Red Vertical line on the Fuselage near the Fwd cargo door on the B737 classics.
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MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Those lines only apply to an engine running at idle. If it is running at full power the danger area is much larger

Agreed.Isn't that area denoted by a Red Vertical line on the Fuselage near the Fwd cargo door on the B737 classics.
regds
MEL

Yup. But these lines only apply under ideal conditions, idle power, dry, not slippery ground, no wind. Any change of these factors will increase the danger area.
At full power the danger area actually extends to several yards in front of the aircraft nose, e.g. at idle the danger area is a 180 degree arc of about 6 meters radius from the fan (NOT THE EDGE OF THE INLET, THE DANGER AREA REACHES AROUND THE INLET TO ABOUT WHERE THE FAN COWLS MEET THE INLET COWL), but at take off power the radius will be about 20 meters.
The whole suction is treacherous as well, because the airflow will start almost unnoticably, but increase rapidly getting closer to the engine. And if anybody has ever watched the video showing the guy being pulled into the inlet of an A-6 Intruder on the aircraft carrier, he will see how strong the forces are. The man was lifted into an inlet well avove his head (Luckily he survived, because he got stuck on an inlet guide vane and his helmet got torn off first and jammed the engine a split second before the man would have reached the fan).

Jan
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
The whole suction is treacherous as well, because the airflow will start almost unnoticably, but increase rapidly getting closer to the engine

Presume no one stays near the Engine during Idle runs.Whats the SOP.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
TimT
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:53 pm

I've done many engine trim runs with the cowling open for idle adjustments, then closed for power, both in the test cell environment and on wing. On a high bypass engine at idle, the most difficult thing is getting past the wind generated by the fan. TOTAL concentration on the task, coupled with a very high level of situational awareness is an absolute need. Above idle, I'm not getting close.

The number 1 rule of avaition; ( I don't remember the exact wording, but it's something like this)

Aviation is, in and of itself, not inherently dangerous. But, to an even greater degree than the sea, it is less forgiving. -author unknown

I always hate to hear about anyone getting hurt, much less losing their life. My sympathies to the family and friends.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:30 pm

Quoting TimT (Reply 12):
TOTAL concentration on the task, coupled with a very high level of situational awareness is an absolute need. Above idle, I'm not getting close.

What about safety harnesses.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
fr8mech
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
What about safety harnesses

And where would these safety harnesses be attached?

Look, nothing beats complete awareness when moving around an engine. I treat every engine I approach as a running engine unless I prove differently. Complancency is a killer in this business.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting TimT (Reply 12):
The number 1 rule of aviation; ( I don't remember the exact wording, but it's something like this)

One of the most exquisitely-worded quotes ever, and one of my personal favorites as well.

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 14):
And where would these safety harnesses be attached

Attached to the Engine Flange in the safe zone.Like the JT8D has for Trimming purposes.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
fr8mech
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Attached to the Engine Flange in the safe zone.Like the JT8D has for Trimming purposes

I've worked at 3 operators who operated the JT8 in its various incarnations and never once used or seen used the harness. Why? One reason I can think of: safety.

If we are running an engine, the last thing I want to do is to be tied to that engine. Normally, we as a maintenance group, are around a running engine, under the cowl, performing a leak check or in the instance of older engines, doing trim runs. These engine, because they are under maintenance, may not perform properly. When a fuel line sprays fuel, I want to be able to clear the engine immediately. When an oil line ruptures, same thing. Hydraulics, run away. Ever seen a JT8 stall during a trim run?

It's not a bad idea, I think the risk of something going wrong during at engine run for maintenance out-weighs the potential benefit of a harness. Granted, the benefit being the mechanic doesn't get chewed up, but I can now count on 2 fingers when this has happened. I can't even count high enough the amount of times I alone have moved away from a running engine because I didn't like what it was doing. Did I aviod injury? In some cases yes, in most, no, because no injury was going to happen, but I value the ability to retreat.

Again, nothing beats situational awareness when we are operating engines.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 17):
I've worked at 3 operators who operated the JT8 in its various incarnations and never once used or seen used the harness. Why? One reason I can think of: safety

Its Documented in the AMM.Although its not frequently used.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:12 am

This reminds me of a guy at BOAC,
The man was wearing a hooded coat, and was standing by the engine of a 747 on an engine test run (100 %) and the hood got sucked into the engine, bringing the man along with it, and he got sucked onto the blades of the engine, He survived amazingly, but lost an arm and leg (although I'm not sure if he lost his leg too) in the process.
Not a nice thing to have happen to you.

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Gunships
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
There's a reason that there are red lines painted on the nacelle that you're not supposed to go past while the engine is running.

Unless I'm mistaken (and that's a real possibility), aren't the red lines shown in the picture posted by HAWK21M meant to illustrate the turbine plane of rotation? As far as I know, these do not exist to warn of the danger of ingestion, but rather to illustrate the plane at which the T-wheel is turning.

In the event of an uncontained failure of the turbine wheel, this is the "most likely" path the fragments would take as they exit the cowling. Basically, it's there to remind you stay in front of or behind the plane of rotation.

Can anyone back me up on this one?
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:12 am

One good word of advice I was given a long time ago. When you are around running aircraft, never back up. This applies to propeller aircraft mostly but I use it around any aircraft.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
777wt
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting Gunships (Reply 20):
In the event of an uncontained failure of the turbine wheel, this is the "most likely" path the fragments would take as they exit the cowling. Basically, it's there to remind you stay in front of or behind the plane of rotation.

The turbine wheel is at the BACK of the engine, not in the front. That's the fan.

The line is where the fan disk is at and it has a small warning image which is a half radius red filled in circle which means danger area to be at when the engine is running.

About the fragments path, it's designed to contain the fragments and shoot it out the back as the regulations and certification requires.

During testing and certification, the engine has an explosive bolt or other means to release a fan blade at 100% power and see if the contamination shield contained the fragment parts and eject it out towards the back. This was done on the GE90 engine in the building of the 777 video, the kevlar liner did contain the fragments and it was shot out back as excepted.

The uncontained engine failures are rare but still happens such as the delta MD-80 fan disk broke through the shield and penetrated the hull which was a long time ago.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 22):
The line is where the fan disk is at and it has a small warning image which is a half radius red filled in circle which means danger area to be at when the engine is running.

That line is aft of the fan. The line indicates the danger zone from injestion. If you loo at the decal on the engine, it also shows the entry zone for maintenance.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:16 pm

Quoting Gunships (Reply 20):
Can anyone back me up on this one

Would have to disagree.
Observe the Decals above the line.The top one illustrates no personnell entry beyond & the lower one gives a plan view of the Aircraft danger zone.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Gunships
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Observe the Decals above the line

I see and understand what you are saying, however my comments are directed at the actual red line itself.

Quoting 777WT (Reply 22):
The line is where the fan disk is at

I believe the line is too far aft to represent the fan disc. The turbine wheel makes more sense to me.

Quoting 777WT (Reply 22):
it's designed to contain the fragments

I'm going back over twenty years to my initial military training on this one and I think I know where my misunderstanding is...at that time, were the engines required to contain the shrapnel from a wheel disintegration? Probably not, I'm not sure when the requirement was enacted. Is it possible these markings just carried over?
I could just be relying on outdated information (and a slightly fading memory...) here.
Thank you very much for the responses.
 
Nudlaug
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:48 am

I also have to disagree with Gunship. The red line on the engine cowl marks the forward danger zone for personnel when approaching the engine from the side, engine being at idle.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Mx Sucked Into Engine At IAH?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting Gunships (Reply 25):
I believe the line is too far aft to represent the fan disc. The turbine wheel makes more sense to me.

You are correct that it is too far aft to mark the fan disk, but wrong to assume that it must be the turbine wheel (which one?). You also seem to be under the delusion that only a turbine wheel can disintegrate. According to your theory, if you stand either side of the line you will be safe from uncontained engine fragments.

On a CFM56-3 there are five turbine wheels (one HP, four LP), as well as a twelve compressor disks (three LP, nine HP), not to mention the fan disk. All these pieces of turbo-machinery rotating at very high speed (in fact two high speeds, N1 and N2). Any of which could disintegrate. One thin line just doesn't cover it.

Listen to the ramp personnel on this forum who actually know what the markings represent.
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