Alias1024
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Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:07 am

In the US, ATC uses the phrase "position and hold" to instruct pilots to taxi onto the runway and hold there, while using "hold short" to instruct pilots to stop short of the runway. After seeing several students get confused by this, I started wondering, why the hell does the FAA use "position and hold". Why not use "line up and wait", like ICAO does?

Anyone else think "position and hold" is a bad phraseology, increasing the likelihood of runway incursions?
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jamesbuk
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
Anyone else think "position and hold" is a bad phraseology, increasing the likelihood of runway incursions?

I think its not the phraseology from ATC but how familiar the student is, for example when i have a flying lesson me and my instructor sit in the aircraft while all the systems are whinding up and we act out the communications and he test's me by using different instructions by doing this im alot more aware of what might happen. So i think no i dont think its the phraseology but the student.

Rgds --James--
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cancidas
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:31 am

the term is there because it's basically what you're doing. you assume take-off position on the runway and hold for TO clearance. besides it's the FAA... i forgot what they use for this term in the UK... haven't flown there in a while.

now, i understand your point about students being uncertain about what the term means. in that case, the responability rest on the instructor to make sure that they know it. also, the student can always ask a controller to either repeat the command or clarify. unfortunately more are worried about being embarassed than the safety of fellow pilots and airplanes.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
bri2k1
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 2):
the student can always ask a controller to either repeat the command or clarify

This is exactly right. Pride and ignorance are not good reasons to change pilot-controller communications. What if a novice pilot didn't understand "give way to the RJ crossing left-to-right for the crosswind runway and enter a left base midfield for runway 17 left?" It's the pilot's responsibility to know and understand correct procedures, including the meaning of standard communication phrases.
Position and hold
 
David L
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 2):
i forgot what they use for this term in the UK... haven't flown there in a while.

Purely from eavesdropping, I only hear "line up and wait" in the UK (mostly Edinburgh). FS is the only place I hear "position and hold" over here. Mind you, I only hear "contact xyz Centre" over here but "contact xyz Center" in the US and that's never confused me.  Smile
 
727EMflyer
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:36 am

Wouldn't "line up and wait" be more appropriate for the ground controller to use at peak arrival/departure time in ATL, LHR, NRT, ORD et al?  duck 
 
Alias1024
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:41 am

With something as serious as whether to be on a runway or not, why have a command to stay clear of the runway and a command to enter the runway both use "hold". I agree that student's shouldn't solo without understanding the difference, but why not use "line up and wait" to avoid any possibility of confusion?

On congested frequencies where everyone is stepping on everyone else, transmissions get broken. Now picture a solo student out in a busy environment, trying to do their best not to lose control of the airplane and listen to the radios. Part of a transmission is blocked, but through the static they believe the hear "position and hold", but they are really told "hold short". The controllers are busy, and don't notice the student incorrectly reading back the instruction. That's why it should be changed. Someone with more experience would know to ask again. The student is probably scared the tower will get angry at them, and will try to comply with the instruction.
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flyf15
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:52 am

Don't worry about it much guys. Position and hold is being phased out in the US. Soon, nobody will be going onto the runway until they're cleared for takeoff.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting flyf15 (Reply 7):
Don't worry about it much guys. Position and hold is being phased out in the US. Soon, nobody will be going onto the runway until they're cleared for takeoff.

How'd you hear about that? Just curious...first I've heard of it.

EDIT: the quote feature had me quoting the thread starter!

[Edited 2006-03-03 00:11:58]
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Tg 747-300
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:18 am

To me "position and hold" is a much better phraseology than "line up and wait".

I don't know why, but it just seems way more professional, and as long as the student has received adequate instruction, it should be hard to confuse with "hold short ....".

but that's just me.

tg 747-300
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David L
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Tg 747-300 (Reply 9):
I don't know why, but it just seems way more professional

Well, I don't know if it actually does cause confusion but if it can then wouldn't that make it less professional?
 
bri2k1
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:50 am

I think the underlying idea is a good one, i.e. to improve procedures to be as safe as possible. I personally think the effort should be spend on improving communication procedures, learning correct phraseology, and teaching students how to respond to a missed comm, rather than trying to change the existing standard. It seems in aviation things only really change as the result of an incident, which is unfortunate. Looking at runway incursion history, though, it seems most of the incidents are related to pilots unfamiliar with the airport missing hold lines or incorrectly reporting their position. Ground-based communications don't have very far to travel, and in my experience, I'm much more likely to miss part of an air-to-ground communication than ground-to-ground. Learning how to correctly interpret airfield signs and markings and related charts would seem to be more prudent, to me anyway.
Position and hold
 
cancidas
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:52 am

let's not forget that a very stern "HOLD POSITION" command from any controller can will cause 99% of airplanes to stop moving out there.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:51 am

That's because with thousands of hours experience, ATC hopes that airline pilots know the terminology by that time. If you notice, ATC only gives Position and Hold instructions to commercial planes, they never give that instruction to GA planes because they assume that GA pilots have no experience, rightly so. In small training airports you never hear the tower say Cessna 172 postion and hold.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
TC only gives Position and Hold instructions to commercial planes, they never give that instruction to GA planes because they assume that GA pilots have no experience, rightly so. In small training airports you never hear the tower say Cessna 172 postion and hold.


Not true, I was given a position and hold last weekend, and the weekend before that and I was flying a 172 out of LAF. I've been instructed to "position and hold" back home at a couple different airports as well.

I have no problem with it, as it was covered when I was still starting to learn, and I learned at a busy airport, which helped sharpen my skills as a pilot. If I do not understand an instruction I will ask ATC to repeat it, and I will not move the aircraft (on the ground of course) until I understand what ATC said. Of course, I am still and will always be learning while in the cockpit.

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:12:36]

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:14:10]
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
That's because with thousands of hours experience, ATC hopes that airline pilots know the terminology by that time. If you notice, ATC only gives Position and Hold instructions to commercial planes, they never give that instruction to GA planes because they assume that GA pilots have no experience, rightly so. In small training airports you never hear the tower say Cessna 172 postion and hold.

Please do not put WRONG info up here......we use that term "position and hold" or "taxi into position and hold" for any operation that we want the airplane on the runway but not starting to roll. Not sure where you picked that up from but it is WRONG! Sorry to be blunt but that is how things get all FAA'd up.
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zeke
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:18 pm

Quoting Tg 747-300 (Reply 9):
To me "position and hold" is a much better phraseology than "line up and wait".

I don't know why, but it just seems way more professional, and as long as the student has received adequate instruction, it should be hard to confuse with "hold short ....".

I prefer standard ICAO only, many places I fly english is the not first language of the controller, standard phaseology from controller to pilot, and pilot to controller is essential for safety.

In my view Americians are just lazy to adopt ICAO phraseology (both pilots and controllers), assume every person has english as a first language.

Saw only recently on here how frustrating is was for both the IB pilot and controller when both of them did not use standard phraseology to get some taxi clearances issued and read back.

ICAO phraseology is not prefect, however it is a published STANDARD.
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bri2k1
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
In small training airports you never hear the tower say Cessna 172 postion and hold.

Sorry, completely wrong. Just about every time I fly a C-172 out of APA, I position and hold behind departing traffic. It improves runway utilization and traffic flow immensely. Controllers don't treat training or GA traffic differently from other traffic anyway, unless they are having difficulty or announce "student pilot." Just tonight I was renewing night currency and flew a C-172 into DEN and got cleared for the option, a stop-and-go on runway 17R, and because I knew the correct phraseology and radio usage, I was treated just like the heavies landing both sides of me. In fact, a F9 A319 was told to position and hold behind me!

[Edited 2006-03-03 06:35:55]
Position and hold
 
N766UA
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:51 pm

Bad phraseology? It says exactly what to do! Go into position on the runway and hold.... seems clear cut and simple to me. I suppose "decend and maintain" is too confusing too?  

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
they never give that instruction to GA planes because they assume that GA pilots have no experience, rightly so. In small training airports you never hear the tower say Cessna 172 postion and hold.

That's a total load of crap. I fly GA airplanes and I get "position and hold" clearances all the time, even at small airports!

[Edited 2006-03-03 06:53:02]
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David L
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:47 pm

Just out of curiosity, are foreign operators legally obliged to learn US phraseology when operating to the US?
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
In the US, ATC uses the phrase "position and hold" to instruct pilots to taxi onto the runway and hold there, while using "hold short" to instruct pilots to stop short of the runway.

That is why read back instructions are mandatory at most airports.

Most of the time when an aircraft is told to "Hold Short" of a runway, they are told by a ground controller. Only after physically switching to the tower frequency, they may be told to "Taxi into Position and Hold".
Slower traffic, keep right
 
Alias1024
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 20):
Most of the time when an aircraft is told to "Hold Short" of a runway, they are told by a ground controller.

Not true. Here is how it ususally works. Ground tells the aircraft what runway to taxi to, but does not say hold short. It is assumed the aircraft will not taxi onto the runway without permission from tower. Aircraft calls tower and advises that they are ready for takeoff. Tower advises them to hold short, usually for either departing or arriving traffic. Ground may issue a hold short if the aircraft needs to cross and active runway, or wait for traffic on a crossing taxiway.

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 20):
That is why read back instructions are mandatory at most airports.

Alright, pretend you are working tower at a busy airport. You are working to land aircraft on two runways, have several aircraft waiting for takeoff, are coordinating with the ground controller so aircraft and vehicles can cross the runway, etc... In this busy environment where you are doing multiple things at once you issue a "hold short" instruction. Which readback is more likely to catch your attention "position and hold" or "line up and wait"?
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bri2k1
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 21):
It is assumed the aircraft will not taxi onto the runway without permission from tower

It's not only assumed, it's a regulation. There is a great pilot/controller glossary in the front of the AIM. Ground can instruct a pilot to "taxi to runway XX" which clears the pilot to taxi via taxiways and across runways to the destination runway and remain on the taxiway short of the runway hold short line. The only authority that can clear a pilot onto an active runway is the tower controller, and no instruction from a ground controller should ever be interpreted as clearance to taxi onto an active runway. A ground controller can instruct the pilot to hold short of a given runway, taxiway, or taxiway intersection.
Position and hold
 
Mir
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
If you notice, ATC only gives Position and Hold instructions to commercial planes, they never give that instruction to GA planes because they assume that GA pilots have no experience, rightly so. In small training airports you never hear the tower say Cessna 172 postion and hold.

Absolute BS. I've been told to taxi into position and hold while in a 172 and a PA28, and at fairly busy airports no less. It happens all the time.

-Mir
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AirWillie6475
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:36 am

OK. I get it. Anybody else want to point out that I was wrong?
 
David L
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 24):
OK. I get it. Anybody else want to point out that I was wrong?

OK, I didn't know it at the time but... you were wrong. Welcome to the club.  Smile
 
777wt
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
they never give that instruction to GA planes because they assume that GA pilots have no experience, rightly so. In small training airports you never hear the tower say Cessna 172 postion and hold.

Absolute bull! At HPN they say "position and hold" to the next aircraft after a aircraft that was on the runway started rolling for takeoff 1/4th of a way down or is past halfway during landing.

And I was in a 172, heard that too many times to count.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:00 pm

anyone who can't understand either of those transmissions shouldn't fly into busy airports (or aerodromes)
 
bri2k1
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 26):
At HPN they say "position and hold" to the next aircraft after a aircraft that was on the runway started rolling for takeoff 1/4th of a way down

At APA, they don't usually wait that long. As long as everyone is lined up at the same intersection, usually the end of the runway because most flight schools require full length takeoffs for student flights, they will clear the second aircraft to position and hold immediately after clearing the first for takeoff, even if neither of them are yet on the runway. In fact, if several aircraft are waiting for departure, they will often clear more than one aircraft to position and hold simultaneously, i.e. position and hold #2.
Position and hold
 
deltamike172
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:34 am

Back to the original thought:

When on the frequency, "taxi to runway 35L" "hold short runway 27" "position and hold" and "hold position" don't sound remotely the same. It might look the same on paper or here on the forum written down, but they don't sound anything a like. Once you start talking about in-flight instructions, it would get even worse, but the point is, there are many many complicated instructions that must be issued by the controller in the minimum amount of time and must be quickly understood over a radio. You can rip on it all you want, and say they don't make sense, but talking to planes all day long at boston center *many aircraft not from the US i might add, the only part of any transmission that every gets confusing is the milage for fix crossings. (cross 15 miles south of Hancock at FL190. The only thing that ever gets confused is the miliage number and if its "this side" or "the other side" of HNK.)

To finalize the point, there is a reason, in the US at least, that all students must have a minimum number of hours before they can get thier license. They must be checked out before they can fly solo. They must have a certain number of hours at a towered airport so they interact and learn the differences between hold short and position and hold.

A quick bit of history:
For as long as I can remember, the correct, by the book phrasology was "taxi into position and hold". Controllers at busy facilities quickly learned that saying the first extra four syllables (sp?) was a waste of time. A local controller at a busy international airport like ORD would say "taxi into position and hold" up to 400 times a day. Thats 1600 syllables a day. So, the unofficial change happened about 10 years ago, and everyone would just say "position and hold". Pilots knew what it meant, it sounded better on the radio, and it saved time in a busy terminal environment. So, back in, oh, 2002 or so (don't quote me on the date, but recently), the FAA changed the 7110.65 to make the standard phrasology "position and hold".

-DM
 
David L
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Deltamike172 (Reply 29):
Controllers at busy facilities quickly learned that saying the first extra four syllables (sp?) was a waste of time.

"Line up and wait" saves one more syllable.  Smile
 
Mir
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 26):
At HPN they say "position and hold" to the next aircraft after a aircraft that was on the runway started rolling for takeoff 1/4th of a way down or is past halfway during landing.

And I was in a 172, heard that too many times to count.

Yes indeed (maybe even a little sooner). HPN was one of the airports I was referring to, in fact, having flown into and out of there numerous times.

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 28):
As long as everyone is lined up at the same intersection, usually the end of the runway because most flight schools require full length takeoffs for student flights, they will clear the second aircraft to position and hold immediately after clearing the first for takeoff, even if neither of them are yet on the runway. In fact, if several aircraft are waiting for departure, they will often clear more than one aircraft to position and hold simultaneously, i.e. position and hold #2.

GFK does this as well. Occasionally I've seen up to three aircraft (all Piper Warriors) lined up in position on the runway one behind the other. However, they generally don't add new ones to that line.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jetflyer
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:24 am

The instruction might be unfamiliar the first time of hearing it but if someone has trouble understanding it repeatedly then they also shouldn't go out at any time undersupervised.
 
lowrider
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):
Don't worry about it much guys. Position and hold is being phased out in the US. Soon, nobody will be going onto the runway until they're cleared for takeoff.

I would also be curious to hear the source for this. I have not heard this anywhere. This would significantly increase take off delays at busy airports. "Position and hold" (or "Position and wait" in Canada) can be done safely and is a useful tool.
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CX Flyboy
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:10 am

....the same reason that the US has to do everything different? What that reason is, I have never figured out though.
 
lowrider
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
Anyone else think "position and hold" is a bad phraseology, increasing the likelihood of runway incursions?

No, the full phrase is "taxi into position and hold". On the ground, "hold has a pretty narrow, specific meaning. "Taxi into position" is pretty self evident by the aircrafts location in the line and on the airport.

Now if you want something that is going to cause a runway incursion, all you have to do is look at the instruction to "taxi to runway XX". In the US, this gives you clearence to cross any intermediate runways unless a "hold short" is specified. In other parts of the world, the "hold short" is implied unless you have explicit clearence to cross.
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goboeing
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:19 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 33):
I would also be curious to hear the source for this. I have not heard this anywhere. This would significantly increase take off delays at busy airports. "Position and hold" (or "Position and wait" in Canada) can be done safely and is a useful tool.

Believe it or not, this was/is actually being considered by the FAA. I read an article within the past six months about it. Sure, it would reduce runway incursions a little...but most of the big airports in this country would not be able to handle the increased amount of time it would take to get each airplane out, and space the arrivals that much more coming in.
 
777wt
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 28):
At APA, they don't usually wait that long. As long as everyone is lined up at the same intersection, usually the end of the runway because most flight schools require full length takeoffs for student flights, they will clear the second aircraft to position and hold immediately after clearing the first for takeoff, even if neither of them are yet on the runway. In fact, if several aircraft are waiting for departure, they will often clear more than one aircraft to position and hold simultaneously, i.e. position and hold #2.

That is true. The runway that is used most at HPN is 6500 ft long and on Fridays, forget about going flying in a 172, coporate jets constantly arriving and departing.
 
Sabenaboy
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:27 pm

Some years ago, pilots were supposed to report "ready for takeoff". That was changed to "ready for departure"? From then on, the word "takeoff" would only be used in a take off clearance as in "airliner123, cleared for takeoff rwy zero-two" (note that I use two digits for the rwy, as it should be ... but that's an other discussion point) . That was a good move to improve safety.

It seems OBVIOUS to me that using the word "hold" in both a line-up clearance as in an instruction to stop, is ASKING FOR TROUBLE. By using "line up and wait" the risk of confusion is decreased and thus safety is improved.

The only reason why FAA doesn't change it, would only be stupidly sticking to old habits. That's a damn foolish reason.

Oh well, I suppose the FAA will change it when a couple of dozen of people get killed after an accident due to this poor phraseology. I'm sure lawyers will be glad to sue the FAA, after such an accident and they will probably win the case.

Just my opinion,
Sabenaboy

[Edited 2006-03-05 11:29:48]
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:58 pm

Does anybody know what effect the 1977 Tenerife accident had on ICAO phraseology? Which lines were changed, how was it before?
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Poitin
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 17):
Just tonight I was renewing night currency and flew a C-172 into DEN and got cleared for the option, a stop-and-go on runway 17R, and because I knew the correct phraseology and radio usage, I was treated just like the heavies landing both sides of me. In fact, a F9 A319 was told to position and hold behind me!

Just curious, but what is the landing fee for a C-172 at DEN? $1.95?
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Tg 747-300 (Reply 9):
To me "position and hold" is a much better phraseology than "line up and wait".

Maybe I'm too old and gray, but I remember "line up and wait" being used at FCM where we literally did that -- about 10 planes on the taxiway waiting to get to the runway. However, the tower always used "hold short" to tell the next guy up to take off that there is a landing aircraft, and "position and hold" to tell him to get ready to take off as soon as the run is clear.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
David L
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 41):
I remember "line up and wait" being used at FCM where we literally did that -- about 10 planes on the taxiway waiting to get to the runway.

In that context "line up and wait" meant "line up ('form a queue' in the UK) on the taxiway" and wait? Not "line up on the runway and wait"?

The penny's dropped! I see why "line up and wait" isn't liked in the USA:
  • In the UK, "line up" means "get pointing in the right direction" - runway is implied
  • In the States, "line up" means "form a line" - taxiway is implied.

Sorry to be slow on the uptake!
 
Mir
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 37):
The runway that is used most at HPN is 6500 ft long and on Fridays, forget about going flying in a 172, coporate jets constantly arriving and departing.

Saturday and Sunday too, at least in the afternoons. Mornings are a little more manageable.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 33):
I would also be curious to hear the source for this. I have not heard this anywhere. This would significantly increase take off delays at busy airports. "Position and hold" (or "Position and wait" in Canada) can be done safely and is a useful tool.

I received this E-mail today from Wings of Eagles School of Flight based in Smyrna TN (a smaller towered airport just SE of Nashville:

"To date, local Air Traffic Controllers have utilized a Taxi in Position and Hold procedure (TIPH). With the demand for rapid departures, this procedure helped increase capacity and was not considered a safety issue. Recent events at other locations; however, have raised concerns for air traffic safety issues related to this procedure.

As a result, the FAA has issued a mandate that all TIPH procedures be discontinued unless a Tower has a certain level of staffing. Smyrna Tower does not meet the staffing level criteria; therefore, Smyrna Air Traffic Control has been directed to cease all TIPH procedures effective March 20, 2006. Nashville International Airport advises they too will also eliminate TIPH as will many other Towers across the country. This will result in some delays for both IFR and VFR departing traffic.

You are receiving this message because you are included in the mailing list at Wings of Eagles School of Flight. If you do not wish to receive broadcast messages in the future, please click the link below.
[deleted]
Wings of Eagles School of Flight, 626B Fitzhugh Boulevard, Smyrna,Tenn 37167"



So there you go... don't know the source, besides of course, the mentioned FAA, of the ending of TIPH, but at least one Airport is verifying this.

[Edited 2006-03-07 04:33:41]
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
bri2k1
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting Poitin (Reply 40):

Just curious, but what is the landing fee for a C-172 at DEN? $1.95?

There is a FBO at DEN, a branch of Signature I believe, and if I'd stopped and done anything there, I'm sure a landing fee would have been part of the picture, but a quick stop-and-go landing incurred me no fee. I know the landing fees at DEN are relatively high for airline operations to help mitigate some of the construction overrun (search for DIA - Denver's Imaginary Airport for more on this).
Position and hold
 
Mir
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 40):
Just curious, but what is the landing fee for a C-172 at DEN? $1.95?

According to a comment on www.airnav.com the landing fee is $40 at the minimum.  eyepopping 

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
flyf15
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 40):
Just curious, but what is the landing fee for a C-172 at DEN? $1.95?

The landing fee at DEN is $40 minimum and the Signature ramp fee is $28 minimum. So if you land there in a C172, shut down, and get out... you're paying no less than $68.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 33):
I would also be curious to hear the source for this. I have not heard this anywhere. This would significantly increase take off delays at busy airports. "Position and hold" (or "Position and wait" in Canada) can be done safely and is a useful tool.

I'm pretty sure that I heard it from an inspector giving a presentation at the Denver FSDO in January that I attended. Though, I'm not totally sure... been trying to find it written somewhere with no luck.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:21 am

I know here at PBI, when there is a "line" of aircraft "wait"ing for departure, the tower will tell the first "position and hold" as soon as an arriving aircraft passes the threshold(or taxiway that an aircraft is at). then they are ready for takeoff as soon as the arriving a/c is clear of the runway.

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 38):
Some years ago, pilots were supposed to report "ready for takeoff". That was changed to "ready for departure"? From then on, the word "takeoff" would only be used in a take off clearance as in "airliner123, cleared for takeoff rwy zero-two" . That was a good move to improve safety.

When I am ready for takeoff and holding short all I say is "tower Nxxxx is ready at 9R" that way I dont use the words "takeoff" untill I read back the towers takeoff clearance

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 38):
(note that I use two digits for the rwy, as it should be ... but that's an other discussion point)

Do the runways in Europe have 09 painted on them? or just 9? I use whats painted on the runway. (9R,31,27L etc)

Dan in Jupiter
 
bri2k1
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RE: Position And Hold? Why Do We Use This?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:15 pm

At APA, with one of the highest volumes of GA traffic in the country, we have full-time special procedures in place. We call ground when we're ready for takeoff, and ground switches us off to monitor tower. Obviously they're adjacently located, physically, in the tower. But, this allows strict adherence to the "only tower can control you onto the runway" rule. I'm not aware of any runway-incursion-related incidents at Centennial.

As I believe you are aware, Dan, runways in the US always omit a leading 0. That could get out of hand, as in runway 0000000036, could it not? Sure, you could impose a limit, as in less than 100 degrees magnetic = include the leading 0, but why that arbitrary limit as opposed to some other? Runway "niner" will never be confused with runway "zero niner" or "one niner" at the same field, if the controllers and pilots are reasonably competent on the radio.

Remember, most of the radio procedures, including phoenetic alphabets, that we use today were actually developed a long time ago when radios were not so good as they are today. While it is not as professional as possible, a local Bonanza when departing can identify himself as "two hundred jay jay" instead of "two zero zero juliet juliet" and we have no problem discerning him from other traffic. An isolated example, yes, and not intended to elicit debate about other situations with bad radios, etc. Just a pointer that we are continuously improving with ANR headsets, pressurized cabins, higher-powered radios, better-gain antennae, and the like, and radio communications will likely continue to improve in reception quality and safety, rather than decline.
Position and hold

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