JulianUK
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Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:37 pm

My 747-400 fully loaded topic bought me on to the question:

Does anyone know if the A380 must/will be able to land fully fuelled and full passengers after take off if there was a fire on board? I assume this must be part of its safety certification otherwise would it still be considered safe in all circumstances?

J
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:50 pm

Yes!

Any aircraft is certified to land up to Max TO weight.

However:
- This might be less safe than the alternative (dumping/burning off fuel) depending on circumstances. A heavy landing means high speeds, poor go around performance and consequent risks (blown tires, etc...) Of course, if you have an out of control fire you land no matter what (cue the Swissair MD-11 discussion).
- A heavy landing check will be required to see that nothing broke.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:08 pm

Just try NOT landing some time!

What Starlionblue said - true.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Any aircraft is certified to land up to Max TO weight.

Not quite. The certification requirement is for the airplane to land after a 30 minute flight. Landing weight can be reduced by the 30 minute of flight fuel plus no more than 15 min. if fuel jettison.

Of course in a true emergency, landing weights can be higher as certification requirements can go out the window on the pilot's decision.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 3):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Any aircraft is certified to land up to Max TO weight.

Not quite. The certification requirement is for the airplane to land after a 30 minute flight. Landing weight can be reduced by the 30 minute of flight fuel plus no more than 15 min. if fuel jettison.

Aaah. Still, close  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
CoolGuy
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:55 pm

It will certainly land. I wonder what would happen to the airframe, landing gear system, etc, though.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 3):
certification requirements can go out the window on the pilot's decision.

Got that right. Those numbers in the nicely bound books we carry work well if it appears there will be another flight by that particular airplane. If subsequent flights seem unlikely, there are no limits.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
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zeke
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:14 pm

FWIW it has already landed well above the MTOW by a large margin during testing.
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ex52tech
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:40 pm

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 5):
It will certainly land. I wonder what would happen to the airframe, landing gear system, etc, though.

That would depend on how the pilot brought it in.

But the inspections would be called out in the maintenance manual for a landing above Max landing weight.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
David L
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
Those numbers in the nicely bound books we carry work well if it appears there will be another flight by that particular airplane. If subsequent flights seem unlikely, there are no limits.

Nicely put!
 
cancidas
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 3):
Of course in a true emergency, landing weights can be higher as certification requirements can go out the window on the pilot's decision.

i agree with that, but it woud be very bad if the captain decided to land and the airplane falls apart from under him.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 10):
i agree with that, but it woud be very bad if the captain decided to land and the airplane falls apart from under him.

But it would be even worse if he decided to keep flying and the airplane fell apart anyway.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 11):

But it would be even worse if he decided to keep flying and the airplane fell apart anyway.

Better on the ground with the gear legs ground to stumps than in the air seeing the wings leave formation. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
Analog
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emerge

Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
FWIW it has already landed well above the MTOW by a large margin during testing.

Is that part of the certification process?

It would make sense if the aircraft had to be able to land at, or even above, MTOW w/o damage to the passenger compartment. Even better would be if it could land without gear collapse, wings falling off, fires starting, that sort of thing.

Of course an aircraft like the A380 or 747 would be damaged (or at least assumed to be damaged such that inspections were required) after such an event.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 13):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
FWIW it has already landed well above the MTOW by a large margin during testing.


Is that part of the certification process?

No, it is not as the airplane is not certified for landing at those weights. The maximum weight for a landing that has to be analyzed (not necessarily demo'ed) during cert is as I described in Reply 3. Note that this weight is not certified either. It merely defines a airplane capability that would be needed very, very rarely during operational service.

However, as part of normal certification testing, it will be common for the airplane to takeoff and land at weights in excess of the certified MTOW. This is done to make testing efficient. Landing at these weights does not use the same touchdown sink rate that is required for a certified MLW.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:43 am

I guess if you have to land IMMEDIATELY when taking off at MTOW, damaging the plane is the least of your worries. Landing with that little planning is probably inherently dangerous anyway.

Typically, you would want a little while to analyze things before trying to trap the three wire. Say, the 30 minutes allowed by the certification requirement.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
Analog
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
tI guess if you have to land IMMEDIATELY when taking off at MTOW, damaging the plane is the least of your worries. Landing with that little planning is probably inherently dangerous anyway.

Right. I'm thinking it should be possible to do that w/o collapsing the landing gear or catching fire... forget damage to the aircraft.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 16):
Right. I'm thinking it should be possible to do that w/o collapsing the landing gear or catching fire... forget damage to the aircraft.

It imagine it's quite possible to do without collapsing the gear, as long as you hit the runway softly enough. That's "just" a question of flaring. But most runways aren't 10 miles long and the pilots would probably want as much braking distance as possible. A long soft float would waste runway.

Also, at those speeds your tires might file a complaint and decide to go KA-BOOM! Your brakes probably wouldn't like you too much either.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
Also, at those speeds your tires might file a complaint and decide to go KA-BOOM! Your brakes probably wouldn't like you too much either.

Your passengers would like you even less if you didn't get them down before the aircraft decided to fall apart.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 18):

Your passengers would like you even less if you didn't get them down before the aircraft decided to fall apart.

Indeed. And the thread is now circling like a plane dumping fuel. Big grin

Anyway these decisions are why there are fleshbags at the pointy end.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
astuteman
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
It imagine it's quite possible to do without collapsing the gear, as long as you hit the runway softly enough. That's "just" a question of flaring. But most runways aren't 10 miles long and the pilots would probably want as much braking distance as possible. A long soft float would waste runway.

Also, at those speeds your tires might file a complaint and decide to go KA-BOOM! Your brakes probably wouldn't like you too much either.

As Zeke pointed out, the 569t certified A388 has been landed at 597t (which, as far as I know, is a record), with very little drama, no runway overrun, no broken gear, and no frazzled brakes. It was just..........landed.

To be honest, that's all you need to know to answer the thread-starters question.

(FWIW I think you'll see an A380 comfortably beat this landing weight sometime in the future, too... )

Regards
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 20):
As Zeke pointed out, the 569t certified A388 has been landed at 597t (which, as far as I know, is a record), with very little drama, no runway overrun, no broken gear, and no frazzled brakes. It was just..........landed.

Right Astuteman. And please notice, this is not just 28t overweight, it is more than 200t over the 386t MLW.

Also interesting is the recent 675t aborted take off test. The plane was accelerated to rotation speed just over 300 km/h, then engines were put at idle - no reversers! - and maximum wheel brake performance was engaged until a complete standstill. Then the plane was left alone with no external cooling from fire brigade and such.

What happened next was that the white glowing brakes transferred heat to the wheels, and after some 3 minutes (as predicted) the pressure fuses brew on the 20 main wheels leaving them all flat.

The test was done with 90% worn down brakes.

A few hours later they had changed the 20 wheels and flew back to Toulouse. There was no damage to the plane.

That was not a landing test. But properly piloted a landing at the same weight (close to double MLW) would not put much more strain on the plane.

On the other hand, in case of an overweight emergency landing you would hardly ever use maximum wheel brake, since a lot more runway would be available compared to an aborted takeoff. And you would of course use the two reversers if the #2 and #3 engines were spinning.

The 388 has shown in its tests to be a sturdy plane. That's also needed if the dreams about a future 389 shall ever come true.

Over the last couple of years there has been a lot of "noise" over 388 being a few percent over the empty weight target. It is good to see that during the weight saving process Airbus did not make shortcuts and make it into a flimsy thing which cracks and buckles under extreme load.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
KELPkid
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
Just try NOT landing some time!

What Starlionblue said - true.

Capt. Click!!! So happy to see you back...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
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zeke
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 21):
Also interesting is the recent 675t aborted take off test.

It was not that high, it was below 600t, it needs all 20 wheels braked to get over 600t.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
David L
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
So happy to see you back...

Not so fast - check the date of that post .  Smile /  Sad
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 23):
It was not that high, it was below 600t

Sorry Zeke, my bad.

It was 575t, not 675t. I googled it, you are right.

Speed was 166 kts / 307 km/h.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-on-during-high-speed-aborted.html

It was MSN001, which they mistreated that way.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 25):
It was 575t, not 675t. I googled it, you are right.

And only 16 tires went flat, not 20 Big grin

I would have loved to see the rearmost tires on the body gear after that happened. They must have been quite stressed, since the center axle no longer carries a load in that condition.
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:10 am

The A330/340 is certified for an autoland at up to MTOW.

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