747400sp
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What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:00 am

I believe I seen a Boeing 747 400 start two engines at a time. But what other aircraft can do this. I do not think the 747 classics can even do this and 747 400 or the only quad jet I ever seen start two at a time. I never really pay attention to a A340 at start up and I never seen an A380 in person. So are that any other quad jets that can start up two engine at a time?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sat May 06, 2006 3:31 am

MH in ARN B744 always start two at a time off the APU
Also MH B777 Trent always start both at once.
 
747luvr
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sat May 06, 2006 6:19 am

Any 777 can start both engines at the same time.
 
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longhauler
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:16 pm

Yes, the A340 starts two at a time.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
joffie
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sat May 06, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 2):
Any 777 can start both engines at the same time.

And the question is:

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Tim

Sat May 06, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
Yes, the A340 starts two at a time.

Which series? I have a cockpit video and the -300 series started the engines one at a time.
 
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longhauler
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 5):
Which series? I have a cockpit video and the -300 series started the engines one at a time.

When I flew the A340, we only had the -300, so I was referring to the -300. By the time the -500s arrived, I was on a different aircraft, so I do not know if the -500 starts two at a time.

It would appear though, that the -300 has the capability, its just up to the particular airline whether it's used.
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scxmechanic
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 12:15 am

The DC-10 can do this as well...
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 7):
The DC-10 can do this as well

Yes, but do you? With a good APU a Tristar can start two at a time, but you need one person watching each start carefully. The modern aircraft have autostart which takes care of hot starts for you.
I used to motor over Tristars two at a time (to cool them down for maint) but never started them.
Does your airline allow you to start two DC10 engines at a time?
 
747400sp
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 6:59 am

I beleive I saw a Contenital Airline DC10-30 going to HNL start two engines at a time.
 
dw747400
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 2):
Any 777 can start both engines at the same time.

I know this is getting back off topic a bit, but isn't this typical for all 777s except those with the GE90-110 and -115B, which require more compressed air?
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TimT
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 1:28 pm

After 8 years of MX on the DC-10, I've never seen an APU on a DC-10 that had the stuff to start 2 engines at once. The AMM calls for 25 PSI minimum for start (if I remember correctly) and every one I've seen just makes it.
 
777wt
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 3:42 pm

I was told by my turbine class professor that the 747-400 can start all four engines once with it's current APU, anyone care to confirm that?
 
FBU 4EVER!
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 10:09 pm

In SAS,we start the A340-313X by commencing with nr.1,then at 10% N2 we start nr.2.
When both are at idle and "avail" is annunciated,we start nrs.3 and 4 in the same way.The APU must be running.Also,autostart is used.With manual start,we start them in sequence 1,2,3 and 4.
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KC135R
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Sun May 07, 2006 10:17 pm

Not a commercial jet, but the KC-135R can start 2 at once (with both APU's running).
 
Matt72033
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 12):
I was told by my turbine class professor that the 747-400 can start all four engines once with it's current APU, anyone care to confirm that?

i've been told a story when we first took delivery of one of our 400's they decided to try this, the APU generator was shut off so literally all the APU had to worry about was supplying air! apparently it managed it it....just!


i'm not sure on the details of the Vulcan, but i remember seeing a documentary and they said on it that it reguarly used to start all 4 engines at once because speed was neccesary!

does anyone know if they used electric starters or did they have an APU and air start?
 
scxmechanic
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 2:28 am

Well TimT, all I can tell you is I've seen it done on more than a few occasions. I don't know where you guys have your APU's overhauled but at the time ours came from UAL at SFO.

Maybe its time you guys find a new vendor! j/k

I wish I knew what dash number APU's they were.. It could have been when I saw it done, it was only on one specific fleet type (-15 vs. -10). This could be the reason.
 
TimT
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 7:06 am

SCX-- it was everyone's fav- NWA..
 
Okie
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 12):
I was told by my turbine class professor that the 747-400 can start all four engines once with it's current APU, anyone care to confirm that?

Bush was here Oklahoma on 29000 and was broadcast on local TV channel live, it appeared to have started all 4 at once or at least in very quick sequence. I watched the clock on my VCR/DVD player and it was a shade over 3 minutes from door closing (no push back), taxi, to being in the air. Pretty impressive, now if they just figure how to do that at ORD, DEN, and DFW for the rest of us.

Okie
 
kaddyuk
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am

The A346 (and also A345 logic might suggest) can start more than one engine at a time. I doubt you'd get all four lit at once, but you might get away with 3.

The A343 is the same and can start more than one at a time as well.

I always leave it to the captains discretion as to whether he wants to light more than one engine at once.
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
scxmechanic
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 3:38 pm

Quoting TimT (Reply 17):
SCX-- it was everyone's fav- NWA

So what's this supposed to mean? Just curious...
 
ariis
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 6:39 pm

Let me go further: can B747 or A340 start all four engines at once? And if not, why is that?

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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 7:59 pm

Vulcans and B-52's can start all engines simutaneously.They use a cartridge start system,not electric or pneumatics (APU).
On the B-52,the alert crew would push a button at the crew entrance door to commence start sequence and when reaching their crew positions,the engines would all be running.Cartridges create a lot of acrid smoke,though!
"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 15):
'm not sure on the details of the Vulcan, but i remember seeing a documentary and they said on it that it reguarly used to start all 4 engines at once because speed was neccesary!

does anyone know if they used electric starters or did they have an APU and air start?

I ve been waiting for an expert to answer but
The Vulcan had electric starters. All aircraft did in those days. But it could start all engines at once when on QRA so, I expect it had a cartridge starter as well, where an explosive charge starts the engine, so you could set all 4 off at once.
A question. The Avon on the Caravelle and Comet had electric start as did the Tyne on the Vanguard. The JT8D had an air starter. When did air starters take over from electric?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Mon May 08, 2006 8:06 pm

Quoting Ariis (Reply 21):
Let me go further: can B747 or A340 start all four engines at once? And if not, why is that

NO. There is not enough mass flow of air from the APU. If you opened all four start valves at once the pressure drop would be too much, and all four engines would rotate too slowly to achieve a start

I expect that the Air Force One B747s are modified to start all at once. An easy way to do this is build a large air tank into the freight bay, which could hlod sufficient compressed air to start all four. Perhaps someone knows how they do it.
 
777wt
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Tue May 09, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 24):
I expect that the Air Force One B747s are modified to start all at once. An easy way to do this is build a large air tank into the freight bay, which could hlod sufficient compressed air to start all four. Perhaps someone knows how they do it.

I think one engine is running the whole time while on the ground parked when the president travels, for an quick departure if needed, this was read off here which the source came from the thread asking about AF1 and how to do maintenance on the plane while the president isn't on board and the running engine needs a oil change. It was said that the other one is stared up and the running one is shut down.

So it could be possible they used a crossbleed start from the running engine to start another one while the APU starts 2 of them on the opposite wing.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Tue May 09, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 25):
I think one engine is running the whole time while on the ground parked when the president travels, for an quick departure if needed,

Sounds like a good idea. The APU on the old B742 was not the most reliable.
I wonder why they dont try and fit a B777 APU instead. That would save them a lot of fuel!
 
Okie
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Tue May 09, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 25):
I think one engine is running the whole time while on the ground parked when the president travels, for an quick departure if needed, this was read off here which the source came from the thread asking about AF1 and how to do maintenance on the plane while the president isn't on board and the running engine needs a oil change. It was said that the other one is stared up and the running one is shut down.

So it could be possible they used a crossbleed start from the running engine to start another one while the APU starts 2 of them on the opposite wing.

That would make sense, as I only had the view of what the camera was showing. The door closed, the camera panned to #1 and within a few seconds there was a heat plume from #1 and I was expecting them to pan to #2 but he taxied off with heat plumes from all engines. They did not have a view of the starboard side so #3 or #4 or both could have already have been running. In any case the time frame from the door closing to taxi was about what you normally expect to start one engine in a commercial application. Pretty impressive, and you do not offen see commercial aircraft with clean aluminum wheels (usually coated in brake dust) and Armor All on the tires.

Okie
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Tue May 09, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 18):
Bush was here Oklahoma on 29000 and was broadcast on local TV channel live, it appeared to have started all 4 at once or at least in very quick sequence.

The USAF VC-25s have duel APUs that allow all 4 engines to start at the same time.

I believe that KC135R already mentioned the KC-135R can start two at a time, but it can then taxi on those two engines (at max gross weight) while starting the other two engines. B-52G/Hs and KC-135A/Es can cartridge start all engines at one time (quick start).

I believe the commerical B-747-400 and A-340-500/-600 can only start two at a time. I seem to recall the Concorde could also start two engines at a time, but usually did not. Older B-707/-720s and DC-8s with compressed air bottle start systems could also start more than one engine at a time.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Tue May 09, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 28):
I seem to recall the Concorde could also start two engines at a time, but usually did not.

The Concorde had no APU.
To start the engines you needed an air starter for each side of the aircraft. So you could start one engine on each side at the same time, but I never saw it done.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Wed May 10, 2006 6:22 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 29):
The Concorde had no APU.
To start the engines you needed an air starter for each side of the aircraft. So you could start one engine on each side at the same time, but I never saw it done.

That must be how it was done, thanks.
 
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longhauler
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RE: What 4 Engine Jet Can Start 2 Engines At A Time?

Wed May 10, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 23):
The JT8D had an air starter. When did air starters take over from electric?

Perhaps with the introduction of the DC-8 and B707, as they were pneumatically started from a cart. Although, curiously enough, the Vanguard came later.
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