f.pier
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What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sat May 20, 2006 6:31 pm

These days we've seen D-ABTK with its nosewhweel broken.
I know that sometimes there have been landings with the nosewheel damaged, but what would happen if it collapsed on takeoff roll?
 
wing
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sat May 20, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
but what would happen if it collapsed on takeoff roll?

One thing is for sure that it won't be called the take off roll any more  Smile .The rest will be pretty much the same as you have seen on the nose gear collapse on landing.
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dizzy8
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sat May 20, 2006 8:42 pm

...you'd make an "unscheduled stop." If it happened at or past Vr, you could probably make an OK takeoff and then flitter around a while until you returned to make a landing worthy of CNN broadcast.
dizzy8
 
aogdesk
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sun May 21, 2006 4:10 am

Yes!!! It is of the utmost importance that the flight crew get the plane off the ground, and circle for at LEAST an 90 minutes which will allow ALL of the TV networks to get ahold of their "experts" to hypothesize about the outcome of the landing.  Wink
 
pilotpip
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:22 pm

Would you really have a "nose gear collapse" past Vr? I don't think you'd have that until landing if the nose gear failed...

I had a gear issue in a 172RG yesterday and there was no waiting around. As soon as I knew all three were down (or at least was pretty sure it was) I put it on the runway.
DMI
 
PhilSquares
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
These days we've seen D-ABTK with its nosewhweel broken.
I know that sometimes there have been landings with the nosewheel damaged, but what would happen if it collapsed on takeoff roll?

No problem, it just takes a lot more power to taxi!!!

On the 744, IIRC all the nose gear incidents have involved MX. The landing gear system on the 747 family is extremely reliable and has been quite trouble free.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Mir
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:55 pm

My opinions:

Nosegear collapse past Vr - continue and come back around for landing

Nosegear collapse before Vr - let friction do its thing and call it a day

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyingColours
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sun May 21, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
Would you really have a "nose gear collapse" past Vr? I don't think you'd have that until landing if the nose gear failed...

Well past Vr you'd be pitching up by then surely so it should't collapse, but it may stay extended (but with no locking system, so it will collapse on landing).

My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Sun May 21, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):

My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

Dodging the question, but the gear is unlikely to collapse at these speeds if it didn't collaps earlier. There's much less pressure on it than during taxi due to lift.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Mir
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Mon May 22, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):
My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

At V1 there should be enough air flowing over the elevators to keep the nose off the ground. However, the effectiveness of the elevators would obviously decrease as the aircraft slowed down, and the force of the breaks would work against keeping the nose up (the brakes are below the center of gravity, and thus when they slow down the rest of the plane wants to pitch down). It would be possible to prevent the nose from slamming down, but it would still hit pretty firmly.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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litz
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Mon May 22, 2006 12:19 pm

So, here's a question ... your gear collapses prior to rotation (let's say there's a pothole, or something similar, that knocks the nosegear out) ...

1) is there enough lift to prevent the nose from slamming down due to gravity?

2) your thrust (at least until the crew can pull the power off) is now pointed at a DOWN angle ... and could effectively be plowing the nose INTO the ground ...

With the change in angle from a dropped nose, is it even still possible to achieve a takeoff, even assuming you can overcome the friction from pushing the nose along the ground?

All theorizing aside, I can't imagine 1) or 2) being a very good day ...

- litz
 
pilotpip
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Mon May 22, 2006 12:19 pm

V1 is usually before or at Vr, so assuming it happened right there, which means you have not rotated yet you'd be slamming into the ground.

I guess I was just getting into semantics with my first post  Smile
DMI
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Tue May 23, 2006 4:39 pm

Quoting Litz (Reply 10):
is there enough lift to prevent the nose from slamming down due to gravity?

I'm deeply sure that proper answer for this question is:
It depends.

 Smile

After all, Vr isn't the absolute minimum needed for rotation, there must be quite a bit of safety margin.
 
rendezvous
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Tue May 23, 2006 6:55 pm

V1 is always at or before VR, not just usually! Not much point having a decision speed if the plane is already half off the ground.

Now about the nose gear. The centre of gravity of the plane is pretty close to the main landing gear. Not all that much speed is required for the elvators to be effective. I've seen some landings where the pilots holds the nose off for a very long time, proving that the elevators are effective down to fairly low speeds. So if you can keep the nose off, it would most likely be safer to take off and sort out your problems, rather than go off the end of the runway and into the water.

If you're in the air, you've got enough fuel on board for the entire trip, so in most cases you've got a fair amount of time to sort out what's going on - fly by's, nose gear up landing procedures etc.
 
twal1011727
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):
My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

On a 20,000 ft runway that might not be a problem..but at LGAs 7000 ft runways you're already 4-5000 ft down it before V1/VR.....screw being gentle..jam on the binders and stop ASAP...better letting the airplane give its life than the 140+ pax

KD MLB
 
mandala499
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RE: What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:36 pm

So, here's a question ... your gear collapses prior to rotation (let's say there's a pothole, or something similar, that knocks the nosegear out) ...

Try goats or dogs... Yes it can happened... luckily it has only happened on landings... on take offs, they're either deaf or are playing gauntlet with an aircraft... LOL

V1 = GO/No Go decision... to allow for a stop or safe acceleration to airborne speeds.

Now, if a No Go, then you'll have extra drag... Nosedown = at V1 speeds the wing will push the weight on the mainwheels and the nose (albeit not as bad as the wheels)... Then your speedbrakes/ground spoilers will deploy at a sharper angle than usual to the airflow, creating more than normal drag... Then, no nosewheel means there is more surface resistance too...

So, structural integrity aside, put the nose down and stop like mad.

However, if you've past V1, then maybe its better to continue if you can keep the nose off the ground and stabilize without loosing too much distance...

Personally, I'd stop unless I'm at Vr...

Just my unlicensed 10 cents...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

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