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HAWK21M
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A319 Landing.

Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:41 pm


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Photo © Miguel Nobrega - Madeira Spotters


Looking at the pic above.What was the Pilot thinking or is it just the Camera Angle.
Unless in the Cockpit one would never know what happened.However Views from A319 experienced Persons.
What load would the A319 MLG sustain vertically.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
A/c train
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RE: A319 Landing.

Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:14 pm

cant imagine Autoland doing that !!! no matter what CAT the airplane is graded! has to be the overpaid monkey up the fronts fault, his wallet is making the airplane nose heavy and he forgot were the pitch trim wheel was
regds a/c
 
SlamClick
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RE: A319 Landing.

Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
or is it just the Camera Angle

No, I'd agree that the plane is in a rather unusual attitude for this height above touchdown. However, before everyone gets all excited about it, notice some things.

We have absolutely no way of knowing the vertical speed. The plane is, on average still 3 to 6 feet from touchdown. It is has a bunch of UP elevator showing. It probably did not touch down for another thousand feet or so, given those facts. We really have no idea what the actual landing was like.

Looks pretty bad at this moment but none of us can say unless we watched the rest of it.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:38 am

you're forgetting the simple fact, perhaps it's a training flight....or a base check flight....sometimes they let students go all the way for them to learn....there's nothing wrong with a 3 point landing as far as MX goes, check out some of the pics on the site and imagine the loads on the landing gear, they can take it no problem
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
RightWayUp
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:47 am

This flight is into Madeira......very very unlikely to be a training flight.
There is everything wrong with a 3 point landing.... the nose gear is not designed to withstand those loads!
 
vikkyvik
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:07 am

Here's another photo of what I think is the same landing:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jorge Abreu - Madeira Spotters



From what I can see, the photo MEL posted was farther along in the landing than this one (you can see the aiming point to the far left of this photo).

According to the caption of the above photo, though, everything turned out fine.

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
pilotaydin
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting RightWayUp (Reply 4):
There is everything wrong with a 3 point landing.... the nose gear is not designed to withstand those loads!

Sure it is! The nose gear is designed to take high loads, just ask any engineer, check out the jetblue landing, and also watch Boeing's video on pushing the stick DOWN after landing, it's informative
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
RightWayUp
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:52 pm

Sorry Pilotaydin, the nosegear may well take it but it was not designed for that technique. The aircraft in the picture looked like it was about to touchdown nosegear first, a definite no-no. Some decent info from an incident in GIB a few years ago including recommendations from Boeings safety magazine Aero:
"Forward control column movement should not be applied..in an effort to improve
landing performance or directional control. The rudder provides the required
directional control until the airplane is at a relatively low speed..Large forward
column displacement.may reduce the effectiveness of main-wheel braking because it reduces the amount of weight on the main gear"

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_507740.pdf

Having seen the 2nd picture it suggests to me that the aircraft received significant extra energy in the flare from changing wind components. Quite often on the A319 I find myself pushing the nose down on final approach below the horizon just to stop levelling out in these sort of conditions.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:44 pm

The 2nd pic makes things more Interesting......Can it be strong crosswinds,however the Rudder looks straight from this Angle.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wingscrubber
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RE: A319 Landing.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:49 am

I would guess it's a crosswind landing, I don't know the official name for the technique but the aircraft is dropping a wing rather than crabbing.
Resident TechOps Troll
 
pilotaydin
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RE: A319 Landing.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting RightWayUp (Reply 8):
it was not designed for that technique

you need to read slowly and correctly...i never said it was designed for THAT TECHNIQUE, i said...it was designed to take those loads...so you can't say sorry to me and make an explanation when you aren't even quoting me correctly in the first place....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
RightWayUp
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RE: A319 Landing.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:54 pm

Pilotaydin, you're right.....
The nose gear may be designed to withstand those loads, but it does not mean it will. From your first post you seriously suggest a training captain will let a student land in a 3point attitude just so they can learn from their mistakes. I have never had to take control from an f/o but I most certainly will, if one tries to land flat or on the nosegear first. The aircraft is designed to drop onto the runway at a high v/s at Max landing weight but I doubt that most people would intentionally let that happen.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A319 Landing.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Wingscrubber (Reply 10):
I don't know the official name for the technique but the aircraft is dropping a wing rather than crabbing.

Are you talking of Sideslipping.
But that would be much Higher  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Ander
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RE: A319 Landing.

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting A/c train (Reply 1):
has to be the overpaid monkey up the fronts fault, his wallet is making the airplane nose heavy and he forgot were the pitch trim wheel was

Only a fearless monkey would dare to write such a comment without knowing a bit of what was going on inside that cockpit.  thumbsdown 
Regards
Born to tri.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: A319 Landing.

Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting A/c train (Reply 1):
he forgot were the pitch trim wheel was

Im a Boeing pilot, but I don't recall ever hearing about Airbus having trim like that....doesn't the Airbus trim itself, you only manually trim in non normal situations
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
A/c train
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RE: A319 Landing.

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:40 pm

we appear to have a couple taking the bait? I am dissapointed.
 
mandala499
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RE: A319 Landing.

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:08 am

Assuming that the two photographers were talking about the same landing, one saying that it had a hard touchdown and jumped... then did the floating wheelbarrow in the other photo... I was just wondering... where were the groundspoilers? The bounce didn't deploy them? or was it a gust of wind pushing it up instead of a bounce... coz it looked like a nose down elevator on the photo, and then a nose up in the floating wheelbarrow act?

It's one hell of a landing to catch on photo... but then again... it IS Madeira...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A319 Landing.

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 16):
I was just wondering... where were the groundspoilers? The bounce didn't deploy them

Whats the Mechanism like.Air-Grd sense + Wheel speed.On the A319.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
2H4
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RE: A319 Landing.

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:27 am



Check this out.....

...From http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/upsets.pdf:

ACN: 608662
Time / Day
Date : 200401
Day : Mon
Local Time Of Day : 1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference.Airport : ZZZ.Airport
State Reference : US
Altitude.AGL.Single Value : 0
Environment
Flight Conditions : IMC
Light : Night
Aircraft : 1
Controlling Facilities.Tower : ZZZ.Tower
Make Model Name : A320
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Phase.Descent : Approach
Flight Phase.Landing : Roll
Person : 1
Function.Flight Crew : Captain
Function.Oversight : PIC

ASRS Report : 608662
Person : 2
Function.Flight Crew : First Officer
Person : 3
Function.Controller : Local

Events
Anomaly.Aircraft Equipment Problem : Critical
Anomaly.Other Anomaly : Loss Of Aircraft Control
Anomaly.Other Anomaly.Other : COMPUTER FAILURE
Independent Detector.Other.Flight CrewA : 1
Independent Detector.Other.Flight CrewB : 2
Resolutory Action.Flight Crew : Overcame Equipment Problem
Resolutory Action.Flight Crew : Regained Aircraft Control
Consequence.Other : Company Review
Consequence.Other : Maintenance Action

Assessments
Problem Areas : Aircraft
Problem Areas : Flight Crew Human Performance
Problem Areas : Weather

Narrative

CAT 3 AT ZZZ RWY 34R. WIND 050/25. WITHIN LIMITS FOR XWIND AUTOLAND. AIRPLANE DID FINE ON THE APCH.

ALL CALLOUTS WERE MADE AND ALL FMA'S WERE THERE. UPON LNDG, AIRPLANE KICKED OUT CRAB DROPPED R WING VERY NICELY. THEN AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT HIT SO HARD WE BOUNCED UP IN THE AIR ONLY TO BE BLOWN OFF TO THE L OF THE RWY.

THE AIRPLANE THEN LANDED NOSE FIRST AND HEADED FOR THE R SIDE OF THE RWY. WE WERE USING AUTOBRAKES MEDIUM AND THE BRAKES KICKED IN FINE. I TRIED STEERING THE PLANE BACK TO CTRLINE AS WE WERE ABOUT TO GO OFF THE R SIDE OF THE RWY.

WE TAXIED TO THE GATE AND WROTE UP UNSAT AUTOLAND. THE MECHANIC PULLED A POST FLT RPT OF THE ACARS AND SAID, 'DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT A AUTOPLT WAS DISCONNECTED AND YOU LOST AN ELAC 1 THREE MINS BEFORE LNDG?'

THE ACARS SHOWED ELAC 1 AND AUTOPLT FLT AP OFF AT XA33Z, THREE MINS BEFORE LNDG. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE RPTR STATED NO ECAM STATUS MESSAGES WERE DISPLAYED PRIOR TO ARMING THE AUTOPLTS AND DURING THE APCH THE FLT MODE ANNUNCIATOR INDICATED CAT 3, DUAL AUTOPLT ENGAGEMENT AND MDA DATA.

THE RPTR SAID AT 400 FEET AGL THE 'LAND' MODE WAS ENGAGED AND INDICATED ON THE FLT MODE ANNUNCIATOR. THE RPTR STATED THE AIRPLANE HAD TO HAVE BEEN IN AUTOLAND WITH BOTH AUTOPLTS ENGAGED AS AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT MADE THE XWIND LNDG WITH A CRAB AND R WING DOWN AND THIS CAN ONLY BE ACCOMPLISHED WITH TWO AUTOPLTS ENGAGED.

THE RPTR SAID AT NO TIME DURING THE APCH AND LNDG WAS ANY EQUIP FAILURE NOTED. THE RPTR STATED THE POSSIBILITY OF ELEVATOR AILERON COMPUTER FAILURE ON LNDG. THE RPTR SAID ENGINEERING BELIEVES THAT IS THE ONLY GOOD EXPLANATION FOR THIS EVENT AND THE CLOCK THAT TIMED ALL THE EVENTS WAS IN ERROR.

Synopsis
AN AIRBUS 320 IN AUTOLAND MODE LNDG KICKED OUT CRAB AND DROPPED R
WING THEN HIT HARD BOUNCING BACK INTO AIR THEN LANDED NOSE FIRST. A
POST FLT CHECK REVEALED ELAC #1 FAILED 3 MINS PRIOR TO LNDG.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A319 Landing.

Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
AN AIRBUS 320 IN AUTOLAND MODE LNDG KICKED OUT CRAB AND DROPPED R
WING THEN HIT HARD BOUNCING BACK INTO AIR THEN LANDED NOSE FIRST. A
POST FLT CHECK REVEALED ELAC #1 FAILED 3 MINS PRIOR TO LNDG

What did the Mx Inspections on the Gear & Structure reveal.Any abnormalities.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
2H4
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RE: A319 Landing.

Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:05 pm




Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
What did the Mx Inspections on the Gear & Structure reveal.Any abnormalities.

All I know is what's in the report above...




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting RightWayUp (Reply 7):
Sorry Pilotaydin, the nosegear may well take it but it was not designed for that technique. The aircraft in the picture looked like it was about to touchdown nosegear first, a definite no-no.

Who, even a neophyte on initial training, tries to land an airliner for a 3 pt touchdown? Who uses that technique? No one.

Sound like a GA guy making an assessment of pic, which in terms of a dynamic event such as landing, is almost meaningless.
 
RightWayUp
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:04 pm

I agree essentialpower, no-one would ever intentionally 3 point land a jet, but it has happened and will happen again. One aircraft I have seen do it is the barbiejet, but I believe that it has a very low approach attitude due to lack of slats.

[Edited 2006-06-17 11:16:38]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting RightWayUp (Reply 22):
One aircraft I have seen do it is the barbiejet,

Whats this.Any Pics.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
David L
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Quoting RightWayUp (Reply 22):
One aircraft I have seen do it is the barbiejet,

Whats this.Any Pics.

Barbie Jet
 
RightWayUp
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:24 pm

DavidL,
Nice one I'll have to keep that piccy for some of my colleagues who used to fly it.
To add to my previous post, I meant that those aircraft are more prone to touching down flat due to lack of slats, not that they do so routinely.
 
Pihero
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RE: A319 Landing.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:38 am

On the TAP 319 subject, it was said to be a bounced landing. It is apparent on the first picture that the pilot had some prop airplane reaction... ended well.
As for the ASR, some comments :

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
WIND 050/25. WITHIN LIMITS FOR XWIND AUTOLAND. AIRPLANE DID FINE ON THE APCH.

With an autoland lomit of 20 kts, I'd say that approach was made outside the cross wind lim.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT MADE THE XWIND LNDG WITH A CRAB AND R WING DOWN AND THIS CAN ONLY BE ACCOMPLISHED WITH TWO AUTOPLTS ENGAGED

The reporter is quite wrong, one doesn't need two autopilots for an autoland.
The drift correction characteristic on this landing indicates how strong the xwind component was : briefly, undetr 15 klts of Xwind, a straight decrabbing
maneuver is used by the auto pilot. Above that value, some amount of sideslip is introduced.
Lastly, no mention at all of the most important FMA messages : Flare and Roll out.
It looks very much like a fault that caused the A/P to revert to a single (fail passive) mode.
Very interesting.
Contrail designer

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