msllsmith
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How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:20 pm

Say there's a B757 with 6(?) doors...... but the plane is configured for only 22 passengers.....hypothetically speaking, they are spread evenly throughout the cabin.

How many flight attendants are required to fly?
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SlamClick
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:56 pm

I don't have an up to date copy of 121 but I'm pretty sure under these circumstances you'd still need one for each exit. Anyone have better info?
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nonfirm
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:54 am

You can check far 121.391 it has all of the details.  airplane 
 
Grbld
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:30 am

You need one FA. The rule is connected to the amount of seats. You need one for every 50 seats with an exemption of 19 or less. So a regional airliner with 19 seats needs no FAs (that's why they made the Beech 1900 carry 19 seats, no 'expensive' FA required) but from 20 to 50 seats, you need one.

We used to fly 8-door 757s with 219 seats with 6 FAs but reduced it to the flight safety minimum of 5 after 9/11 to cut costs and after simplifying the in-flight offerings.

Grbld
 
Fokker Lover
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting Msllsmith (Thread starter):
How Many F/As Do You Need......?

I believe that most pilots need to pay alimony to two or three. Big grin


I wanted to post that last night, but decided to wait until somebody posted a real answer to the question.
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):
So a regional airliner with 19 seats needs no FAs (that's why they made the Beech 1900 carry 19 seats, no 'expensive' FA required) but from 20 to 50 seats, you need one.

Someway always to beat the system.What about Emergencies,wouldn't a FA be handy leave alone Refreshments.
regds
MEL
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msllsmith
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting Fokker Lover (Reply 4):
I believe that most pilots need to pay alimony to two or three.

I don't know who you are, Masked Man, but I think you don't get the bronze ring....... an interesting idea about the number of F/As .... re: Pilots (some, but very few..... a lot of fantasy there on the part of the folks left on the tarmac) paying alimony to fa's.

Bottom line.... I'm thinking that regardless of the # of passengers...... there has to be a F/A for each door..... (kudos, Mr. Click)

If the plane where configured for 200 pax, (the a/c I'm describing is not) but all 22 sat at the front of the a/c...... then, at the Captains discretion, the other F/As could sleep or read books or etc. , but, if not, all doors would have to be covered.

However...... I'm not finding a schematic of a 757...... ???????...... and I'm thinking...... 4 doors (?) and ? (?) overwing exits?

But, I'm wondering if anyone has the real answer?

(Obviously, I'm having a slow weekend.... Smile )
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):
So a regional airliner with 19 seats needs no FAs (that's why they made the Beech 1900 carry 19 seats, no 'expensive' FA required) but from 20 to 50 seats, you need one.

Someway always to beat the system.What about Emergencies,wouldn't a FA be handy leave alone Refreshments.

In an emergency the pilots can practically reach out and touch the 1L door on the Beech, so it's hardly a problem.

And refreshments? On a Beech 1900 I have never experienced this. Big grin
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SlamClick
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):
You need one FA. The rule is connected to the amount of seats.

Since the question was asked from the US and you are posting from another country perhaps you should mention the rules you are citing.

* * *


US FARs require one for each fifty passenger seats, including any fraction of fifty. (So 100 would require 2 and 101 would require 3) However, in the older version of Part 121.391 that I have it also makes reference to the number required to perform the emergency evacuation drill required under 121.291 which in turn references Appendix D. This, if I remember it right, demanded that you be able to evacuate a full airplane in 90 seconds with half the exits blocked.

Now one flight attendant could probably evac 22 passengers through 1L and 1R simultaneously and still have time to say "B-bye! Thanks for flying with us." but I doubt that one flight attendant could manage all the tasks and demonstrations required during this demo.

The legal answer may in fact turn out to be one flight attendant but I seriously doubt that you could find an FAA POI to sign off on it.

[Edited 2006-06-11 16:16:41]

[Edited 2006-06-11 16:17:39]

[Edited 2006-06-11 16:18:32]
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bri2k1
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:30 pm

A few times a year, I fly UA to/from ONT-LAX on an EMB-120. It's about a 15-minute flight, not even a chance to turn on electronic devices, but there's always a F/A who stays buckled up the whole time. There's never a F/A on the Beech 1900 I take from BOS-SYR. This anecdotal evidence seems to lend some credibility to the number-of-seats theory, since there's 19 seats and 4 exits on the Beech but no F/A for a 1.5 hour flight, but 4 exits and 30 seats on the Brasilia, with a (usually good-looking, thank you Skywest) F/A to match.
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SlamClick
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 9):
number-of-seats theory

It is not a theory. It is right there in the regulations.

19 seats - no flight attendant.
20 to 50 seats - one flight attendant
one for every fifty seats or fraction of fifty (since you can't have a fraction of a flight attendant)

The question here was whether the airplane in question would require more flight attendants (1) that the number of seats (22) installed would dictate.
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msllsmith
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:59 am

Thank you SlamClick for doing my homework for me...... I was too lazy to pull out my FARs.

Probably a CSI (Cabin Safety Inspector*) could put an end to this discussion immediately.

It's too bad it's Sunday and I can't russel** one up.

(*an archaic term, ** it's also too bad I can't spell..... anyone know how to spell russel as in "I russel passengers for my living."?)
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bri2k1
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:41 am

I think you're looking for rustle, as in cattle rustlers.

Now you've had two assignments done, free of charge.
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msllsmith
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 12):
think you're looking for rustle, as in cattle rustlers.

Now you've had two assignments done, free of charge.

Thank you. Spelling was never my greatest strength.
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calpilot
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:35 am

The answer to this question is one, in the US it is based on number of seats, period.
 
SlamClick
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 14):
The answer to this question is one, in the US it is based on number of seats, period.

Not exactly true. The number of flight attendants may not be fewer than those required to conduct the evac demonstration under 121 Appendix D. References FAR 121.391, 121.291 and 121 Appendix D.

But that has already been said.
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vikkyvik
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 6):
However...... I'm not finding a schematic of a 757...... ???????...... and I'm thinking...... 4 doors (?) and ? (?) overwing exits?

Just for your info, passenger 757-200s have two configurations:
1.) 6 doors and 4 overwing exits
2.) 8 doors.

757-300s have 8 doors and 4 overwing exits.

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 9):
A few times a year, I fly UA to/from ONT-LAX on an EMB-120.

Not to get off-topic (too late), but anyone have any idea how high they climb on that flight? Assuming you're taking off on one of the 25s from ONT, and landing on one of the 24s or 25s at LAX, I'd guess you go up to around 7,000 feet and then come right back down. In this sort of situation (where you're basically climbing right into the approach to LAX), is your takeoff slot based on when SoCal Approach can fit you in?

~Vik
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bri2k1
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 16):
Not to get off-topic (too late), but anyone have any idea how high they climb on that flight? Assuming you're taking off on one of the 25s from ONT, and landing on one of the 24s or 25s at LAX, I'd guess you go up to around 7,000 feet and then come right back down. In this sort of situation (where you're basically climbing right into the approach to LAX), is your takeoff slot based on when SoCal Approach can fit you in?

With the cockpit doors on the Brasilia, I can't personally be sure. I actually fly more often LAX-ONT than the other way, and we take off with all the other traffic, usually on 25R, but I've never waited long, we just sort of get in line. We fly out over the ocean, climb a little, then head towards ONT and fly an extended pattern (there's never much traffic at ONT, even with the one runway under construction.) It's hard to guess at altitudes from the cabin, so I won't even try. I've never personally flown an aircraft in the SoCal area, so I can't comment much further.
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Grbld
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:47 pm

SamClick, turn on your lawyer-mode and re-read FAR Part 121.391. It says:

- You need 1 FA per 50 passenger seats (19 or less exempted)
- IF during entry into service, an operator (certificate holder) uses MORE flight attendants than required by the seating requirement, during EVAC demonstration, he is bound to that number. Only then! As a result, if that operator uses the same plane with fewer seats, you still need the number of additional FA's that were on top of the seat requirements.

So only if you required 5 according to the seats, and you used 6 during taking into service of that aircraft type for evac demonstration, you'll need those 6 always. Or, if you use the same plane with 100 seats, you need min required (=2) plus the one additional you used during evac demo, making 3 the required number of FAs on board.

I was involved in a 48-seat BBJ operation as well, and all you need is 1 FA. That there are more because of service, is a different story. During normal service, the same 737-700 fuselage requires 3 FAs.


Bottom line, if you have 22 seats in a 757 and you can demonstrate that you can get all those 22 folks out in 90 seconds with 1 FA, you're legal.


I have flown under US spec as well, and I wonder why looking at the flag near my name always raises scepticism. The JAA rules I fly under now (757 and 737) are virtually a carbon copy of the FARs.


Grbld
 
SlamClick
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Grbld (Reply 18):
SamClick



Quoting Grbld (Reply 18):
re-read

Everything.
Carefully.
Please.

[Edited 2006-06-12 15:54:59]
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SlamClick
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:03 pm

Now that we have my name right, let us examine what I said vs what you said:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 18):
- IF during entry into service, an operator (certificate holder) uses MORE flight attendants than required by the seating requirement, during EVAC demonstration, he is bound to that number.

Okay, sort of like:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
The number of flight attendants may not be fewer than those required to conduct the evac demonstration under 121 Appendix D.



Quoting Grbld (Reply 18):
Bottom line, IF you have 22 seats in a 757 AND you can demonstrate that you can get all those 22 folks out in 90 seconds with 1 FA, [then]you're legal.

Bolding and [bracketed word] mine.

Nothing I said in any post conflicts with this.

Quoting Grbld (Reply 18):
The JAA rules I fly under now (757 and 737) are virtually a carbon copy of the FARs.

Since the question was posted from the US it is only courteous to make it clear that a reply is based on US assumptions.
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Grbld
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 am

Aye, indeed you did say so SlamClick. Please accept my apologies!

And for the record, I was basing my answer on US assumptions. I don't feel the need to write this just because I have a Dutch flag beside my name. If I wanted to elaborate on the flight regs in Tonga, I would specifically state so.

Grbld
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Grbld (Reply 21):
If I wanted to elaborate on the flight regs in Tonga, I would specifically state so.

Why not just go to their website?  Wink

http://www.mca.gov.to/
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msllsmith
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:04 am

I'm still thinking 1 FA for every door.... or close to it.

I think that even if the 1fa to 50 passengers is the rule (which it is) that in a larger a/c it will still never be certified that way..... for this reason; the feds will never let them get away with it.

My examples are never as good or clear as Mr. Click's are but I'll give it a try. Say all 22 (not my example in my initial thread topic) sat in zone A. So the airline asks to have it certified for 1 FA..... assuming (hoping) that the certification will be based on evacuations being done from the front doors...... the feds, being practical people will set up a scenario where in fact, the only "usable" doors are the rear doors (we're thinking the original a/c in the thread, 757)...... even in the most ideal conditions, 1 fa could not run to the aft of the a/c and evacuate all passengers in the required time.....

The reason, in my thinking, is that no emergency is ever "easy, or clean"..... and the feds are going to always think in worst case scenario.

I'm a very simple type, but I have a little experience and a good imagination.

I'm fascinated that this has generated so much thought. And, I think it's quite appropriate. I believe that in aviation we sometimes forget the back end of the plane....meaning cabin as opposed to the flight deck.
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bond007
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 23):
I'm still thinking 1 FA for every door.... or close to it.


The regs have been explained pretty well, and it is nothing to do with number of doors.

One way of looking at the Part 121 regs, is that this is a minimum requirement. It may require more depending on certification (as explained also).

If you could demonstrate evacuation of those 22 pax with 1 F/A, then that is all that is required by FAA regs.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 16):
Assuming you're taking off on one of the 25s from ONT, and landing on one of the 24s or 25s at LAX, I'd guess you go up to around 7,000 feet and then come right back down.

Actually these are flight planned for only 4,000 feet.


Jimbo

[Edited 2006-06-14 05:55:03]
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SlamClick
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 24):
it is nothing to do with number of doors.



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 24):
If you could demonstrate evacuation of those 22 pax with 1 F/A, then that is all that is required by FAA regs.

I never really explained this well, but here is what I was thinking.

Obviously one flight attendant could get 22 peeps out one door in 90 seconds. But my reading of Appendix D and the evac demos I've participated in makes it anything but certain that the FAA would buy off on this. And they do have some considerable authority to interpret the rules for themselves.

One issue is that the demo requires that half the required exits be blocked for the demo. That means we either have to have one flight attendant responsible for two exits or we have to block the one and only exit after only forty five seconds to satisfy that requirement. Not quite a slam dunk anymore.

The 'passengers' used in the demo may not be employees with knowledge of the operation of the exits etc. They may be administrative employees, bookkeepers, HR types and so forth. A certain percentage must be women, elderly, and dolls representing infants. The aisles and exits must be partially blocked with carryons. These things may tend to slow the evac demo. They may not recieve any briefing except the normal pre-takeoff safety briefing. They may not practice. They may not have participated in a similar demo within the past six months. So if you don't make the time limit on the first try you must get a whole new passenger manifest.

The windows are going to be covered and the f/a and passengers will not know until the demo begins which exit(s) will be used. This means that we may assume 1L is going to be the exit used. When the demo begins we find that exit blocked by fire. The one finally used could be 3R. The f/a is going to have to keep 22 excited peeps under control and redirected to the good exit all in 45 seconds. I think it unlikely that such a demo could be performed to the complete satisfaction of a Fed.

One last thing. 121 Appendix (a)(11) says:

The seating density and arrangement of the airplane must be representative of the highest capacity passenger version of that airplane the certificate holder operates, or proposes to operate.


This pretty well means that the operator (airline) may not operate any B-757s in a seating capacity of greater than 22 pax.

My money is on it never being approved.
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bond007
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
A certain percentage must be women, elderly, and dolls representing infants. The aisles and exits must be partially blocked with carryons. These things may tend to slow the evac demo.

Yes, agreed, but remember we're talking about 22 pax in a large aircraft, spread out with plenty of room presumably. The chances of something blocking your exit are MUCH less likely than a fully loaded 757 with max seats. I'm guessing the FAA would actually be more lenient on the 'blocking of exits' since this is far less likely to happen, especially since you could design it so no seats are right next to an exit (as they are in a 'real' 757).

Of course, it's not really a realistic scenario, but I think you've answered it well.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
The f/a is going to have to keep 22 excited peeps under control and redirected to the good exit all in 45 seconds. I think it unlikely that such a demo could be performed to the complete satisfaction of a Fed.

But isn't this what would happen in a small 22 seat aircraft, with far less room to move around?


Jimbo
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mandala499
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:59 am

If it's one for each door, then how do some carriers get away with 3 F/As on a 732? It's 1 FA for 20-50 pax, then 1 F/A for every 50 pax thereafter. Now, if you have an airplane with 251 seats, you need 6 F/As no matter how many pax you have on it, EXCEPT, when you can partition the cabin and shove the pax onto one section. Hence, if you have 51 pax on a 251 seat aircraft, U can getaway with having 2 F/As IF and only IF you can put all the pax into 1 section and seal off the rest of the aircraft... and you must have at least an adequate amount of exits in that used section of the aircraft to carry out an evacuation as per the 90 secs with half the available exits (in this case, in the section used) requirement...

As far as I know, the requirement of F/As per number of available exit and vice versa is not due to a fixed formula like the F/As per available seat, but due to the ability of the F/As to carry out the 90 second with half the available exit rule... which includes, blocking off unusable exits...

Mandala499
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WNCrew
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:30 pm

For the LUV : )!!!
It's NOT 1 FA per each door! It is 1 FA per 50 pax seats!!!!
AGAIN:
1-19 seats (NONE)
19-50 seats (1 - FA )
50-100 seats (2 - FA's)
101-200 " (3 - FA's)
201-300 " (4 - FA's)

.....and so on! Even on a 757 which in the US normally requires 5 FA's not all doors have their own FA. I work the 737 and the rear FA is responsible for BOTH the L2 and R2 doors. Minimum crew on our 737 is 3 FA's (137 pax)....but if we had 151 we'd need...........(drumroll please).......FOUR FA's! : )

Plus: I think some people aren't understanding that when you say "Evacuation Demo" it's not to mean "Safety Demo"...it means "Evacuation proving run". Say WN wanted to start flying the 757 and certify it with 151 seats. Well, it would require a minimum crew of 4 FA's......but WN uses 5 FA's for the Evacuation Certification Proving Runs.....well if they get everyone out in 90 secs or less with only half of the available exits and they pass the cert. from there on out WN HAS to crew their 757 with 5 FA's, even though minimum crew is 4.

Capiche?
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Eos757
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:41 pm

I work for Eos which uses a 48-seat 757. Similar, but not exactly the example used by the OP.

Yes, FARs talk about one FA for each 50 seats or fraction thereof. Our aircraft has 48 seats. Could we be a one-FA aircraft? Absolutely NOT.

There is another section of the regs that references FA coverage for each door PAIR. Not door, but door PAIR. And this excludes self-help exits (window exits) if FAs are not assigned to open them.

The Eos 757-200 has 4 door-pairs (no window exits). So our minimum FA complement is 4. If we had 3 door pairs and window exits (as some 757 operators do), we could have done our mini-evacuation demonstration with 3 FAs.

Also, do not confuse a "full-scale evacuation demonstration" with a "mini-evac". A full-scale demonstration is conducted by the aircraft manufacturer when a proposed new aircraft is entering service (reference the recent A380 test). These are the tests that require actual "passengers" to be evacuated from the aircraft in less than 90 seconds. Here we find the rules about no company employees, a certain number of elderly, dolls representing infants, and baggage strewn about the aircraft.

Contrast that to a "partial evacuation demonstration", aka "mini-evac". These are the demonstrations conducted by airline carriers. Could be a startup airline, or an existing carrier proposing a new model or configuration of aircraft. These demonstrations do NOT involve actual passengers onboard the aircraft.

These tests are observed by FAA from inside and outside the aircraft. One half of the exits are simulated as "blocked", and the FA crew must open the useable exits and "prepare them for use" (ie fully inflate evacuation slides if applicable) within *15 seconds*. These tests are used to evaluate the safety policy, evacuation procedures, and crew training of an airline carrier (or proposed airline carrier).

As you can see, it would be impossible for a single FA to operate 1/2 of the emergency exits on the aircraft (3 or 4 exits depending on configuration), and prepare them for use in 15 seconds!

I am not familiar with what some of you have described: "Partitioning off" parts of the aircraft so all pax are seated in one small section, with only some exits accessible. This seems like what AS has on its 737 COMBIs, with 20-50 seats in the rear of the aircraft with just L/R 2 exits accessible. I believe they may use one FA on these aircraft, but if there were any egress through other aircraft exits I don't know if that would be permitted.

Eos has passenger seats throughout the 757, not jammed into one section (that is sort of the point)! And we use 6 FAs on our crews, but the minimum is 4, since that is what was utiized in our mini-evac and other FAA proving tests.

Good question, and I just wanted to contribute some additional information.
 
flymatt2bermud
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:19 pm

Kudo's to any flight attendants reading this! Your responsiblity is highly under appreciated because there are so few airline/corporate accidents for many people to hear the praises of those you saved. I was in Toronto soon after the AF Airbus 340 slid off the end of YYZ Runway 24L. The aircraft was full and all PAX were evacuated (minimal evac only injuries) within 90 seconds, before any EMS/Firefighting crews had time to reach the aircraft. The entire cabin was eventually consumed by the post crash fire. There were about 14 FA's aboard due to the flight time between Paris - Toronto.

Quoting Grbld (Reply 18):
So only if you required 5 according to the seats, and you used 6 during taking into service of that aircraft type for evac demonstration, you'll need those 6 always



Quoting Eos757 (Reply 29):
Contrast that to a "partial evacuation demonstration", aka "mini-evac". These are the demonstrations conducted by airline carriers. Could be a startup airline, or an existing carrier proposing a new model or configuration of aircraft.

I was on a (foreign air carrier) flight on a 747 from Auckland to Los Angeles last month. Two FA's didn't show up so the airline closed the center cabin seating. While this would fall under foreign or perhaps JAR regs, I wonder how they could do this?

I was also on a (US Carrier) 757 flight that had 4 flight attendants. The FA told me that since their PAX loads were reduced that is how they determined the number of required flight attendants.

I have heard BBJ's (Boeing 737-800 executive aircraft) configured for 19 PAX can operate without a flight attendant.

I always thought the number had to do with the number of available seats/exits as regulated. But if just by not putting passengers in those seats meets some Air Carrier's OPS SPECS it is news to me. Though I have witnessed the FA reduction as mentioned first hand.
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Eos757
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:56 pm

FlyMatt:

Your profile/pix suggest that you are a pilot flying US-registered Challengers and Globals. Is this correct? I'm confused...

Anyway, in the USA, the (basic) FA requirements are based on the number of seats, not the number of pax on board. Taking into account the training and demonstration requirements I talked about above. So a 225-seat aircraft will ALWAYS require a minimum of 5 FAs, even if there is only one passenger on the aircraft.

In other countries (Canada for example) there are different regulations, based on ACTUAL pax onboard, not seats. They may modify the FA complement depending on how many people are on the aircraft. I would appreciate any feedback on this from our Canadian friends...

A BBJ with 19 seats does not require a FA. Not only does this reference different regulations (Part 91/135), but NO 19-seat aircraft in the USA requires Flight Attendant crew.

Are you sure in your 757 example, the FA was not talking about a reduction in the number of SEATS? We do not have a regulation in the USA that permits a fluctuation in the number of FAs based on pax onboard. If the carrier reduces the number of seats, they may change the number of FAs if applicable.
 
CSMUK
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:58 pm

An odd question BUT I am a CSM for British Airways and I would like to ask you guys as passengers, how many cabin crew do you like to see? More or less???

Just an odd question that popped into my head! Sometimes when crew are assigned it can depends on passenger loads, duration or even on what the airline can get away with!

Dana
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Eos757 (Reply 31):
We do not have a regulation in the USA that permits a fluctuation in the number of FAs based on pax onboard. If the carrier reduces the number of seats, they may change the number of FAs if applicable.

Its always based on No of Seats not Pax.
regds
MEL
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flymatt2bermud
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Eos757 (Reply 31):
Are you sure in your 757 example, the FA was not talking about a reduction in the number of SEATS?
The flights I was on with the 757, did not appear to have any seats removed from it's typical configuration. I always thought the rule was based upon seats so I was perplexed when the FA told me they had reduced this day's number of flight attendants to four. It may have been that the configuration of seats only required four and perhaps the airline ordinarily had five on the flight since it was international.

Quoting Eos757 (Reply 31):
Your profile/pix suggest that you are a pilot flying US-registered Challengers and Globals. Is this correct?
On the flights referenced I was a passenger (not crew) commuting to/from assignments. I have flown corporate jets internationally (true INT'L Africa, North/South America, Asia, Europe & Australia)for 25 years. I am current in the Global Express and Challengers and work for a company full time.

[Edited 2006-06-18 20:49:19]
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amtrosie
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:00 am

You all are assuming part 121 regs. Part 135 and 91 are different. It could be thqat anything with more than 9 pax require a F/A.
 
bond007
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 35):
You all are assuming part 121 regs. Part 135 and 91 are different. It could be thqat anything with more than 9 pax require a F/A.

Well, generally, the regulations get stricter as you go from 91, 135, 121 ... not more lenient.

In fact, the F/A requirements are in 91.533, so valid for Part 91 also.

Jimbo

[Edited 2006-06-19 07:43:30]
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L-188
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:22 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
19 seats - no flight attendant.
20 to 50 seats - one flight attendant
one for every fifty seats or fraction of fifty (since you can't have a fraction of a flight attendant)

That is what I remember and it is a test question on the FAA Dispatcher written.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
Quoting CALPilot (Reply 14):
The answer to this question is one, in the US it is based on number of seats, period.

Not exactly true. The number of flight attendants may not be fewer than those required to conduct the evac demonstration under 121 Appendix D. References FAR 121.391, 121.291 and 121 Appendix D.



Quoting Grbld (Reply 18):
IF during entry into service, an operator (certificate holder) uses MORE flight attendants than required by the seating requirement, during EVAC demonstration, he is bound to that number.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
One issue is that the demo requires that half the required exits be blocked for the demo.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
One last thing. 121 Appendix (a)(11) says:

The seating density and arrangement of the airplane must be representative of the highest capacity passenger version of that airplane the certificate holder operates, or proposes to operate.

This pretty well means that the operator (airline) may not operate any B-757s in a seating capacity of greater than 22 pax.

My money is on it never being approved.

I don't buy that. I say that because I used to work for two different airlines that operated Combi aircraft (727C and 737QC respecively), The configuration went from 110 or 111 to 48 seats. We Always had 2 F/A's on board. But only when a third one was required in 110 configuration was a 3rd added.

I think that if the hypothical airline was able to successfully demonstart a 90 second evac to the FAA in 22 seats and one with the full cabin, they would be successful in getting both configurations approved.

You have to remember that a certification is very much a negotiated document between the FAA and the company seeking the certificate.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 28):
Plus: I think some people aren't understanding that when you say "Evacuation Demo" it's not to mean "Safety Demo"...it means "Evacuation proving run". Say WN wanted to start flying the 757 and certify it with 151 seats. Well, it would require a minimum crew of 4 FA's......but WN uses 5 FA's for the Evacuation Certification Proving Runs.....well if they get everyone out in 90 secs or less with only half of the available exits and they pass the cert. from there on out WN HAS to crew their 757 with 5 FA's, even though minimum crew is 4

That's the way I read it. IF for some reason they wanted to go to four, they would have to re-run the drill with 4 and successfully complete it.

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 35):
You all are assuming part 121 regs. Part 135 and 91 are different. It could be thqat anything with more than 9 pax require a F/A.

135 is over 19 seats also. 9 Seats is the largest you can run a flight shed under 135, but you can charter up to 19 seats.
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WNCrew
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 37):
This pretty well means that the operator (airline) may not operate any B-757s in a seating capacity of greater than 22 pax.



Quoting L-188 (Reply 37):
I don't buy that. I say that because I used to work for two different airlines that operated Combi aircraft (727C and 737QC respecively), The configuration went from 110 or 111 to 48 seats. We Always had 2 F/A's on board. But only when a third one was required in 110 configuration was a 3rd added.

Yes but that's in a combi/QC, with a movable smoke barrier, which BTW will never be approved again by the FAA. Those in service by AS for instance are grandfathered in. Those 73M's can have either 26,32,56,72 OR 111 depending on the configuration (I have the manual right in front of me) AND AS 99.9% of the time dispatches the 73M with 2 FA's even in a 5 pallet (26 seat) configuration.

But, if an airline certified a regular pax carrying airplane for ANYTHING less than it's maximum capacity.....then they can't go adding seats without RE-certifying the aircraft.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wilco737
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RE: How Many F/As Do You Need......?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:31 pm

I just need one F/A: My Girlfriend  Big grin

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