airwave
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Airport Runways As Raceways

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:20 am

Today on CBS, I saw that they were broadcasting the Champ Car Grand Prix (or something like that) from Cleveland. I also noticed that the racetrack was actually a runway and taxiways.

Was this race actually held at CLE? If so, what special rules are in effect for both the airport and Champ Car? Will they clean the runways to remove the rubber residue? I'm sure they'll be taking care of all the FOD that's around, but with all that, how soon until the runway is released back to the airport for use?

Thanks to any responses.


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corey07850
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Airwave (Thread starter):
Was this race actually held at CLE?

Nope, it's at Burke Lakefront (I wanna say the code is BKL?)

 
EMBQA
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:58 am

They've been racing there what...?? 15-20 years...?? Remember last year a helicopter crashed in the middle of the race.

[Edited 2006-06-26 04:17:34]
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vikkyvik
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 1):
Nope, it's at Burke Lakefront (I wanna say the code is BKL?)

I was in Cleveland briefly a few years ago at the time of this race. I happened to see it on TV, and immediately noticed that they were at an airport. It's pretty awesome seeing the cars make turns from taxiways to runways, etc. And it's pretty funny seeing cars going as fast (or faster?) as you typically see planes going on a runway - those touchdown zone markers whiz by pretty quick.

I also remember the commentators saying something to the effect that it was somewhat more challenging due to the runway's grooved surface.

~Vik

Edit: By the way, if you look on Google Earth, you can pretty clearly see the route the cars take on the runways/taxiways from the rubber markings (at least that's what I assume it is).

[Edited 2006-06-26 04:10:20]
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lincoln
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:47 am

It is indeed BKL...

Shameless self-plug: I live less than two miles down the (same) street  Smile

Suprisingly the Cleveland Grand Prix (I thought it was year 30...) doesn't screw up traffic on North Marginal as much as Browns game.

I heard somewhere (not the most relable source) that because the runways and taxiways were used for the races they were mantained in better condition than an airport would normally see.

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MarkC
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:05 pm

Airports make great racetracks. A few of the British road courses are ex WWII airbases.

Cleveland is the best place I have ever gone to see a race. It is a road course with the unobstructed full course view of an oval.
 
airwave
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 1):
Nope, it's at Burke Lakefront (I wanna say the code is BKL?)


Quoting Lincoln (Reply 4):
It is indeed BKL...
Okay, thanks! Apparently both CLE and BKL have similar runway alignments (a 6-24 L/R), which was how I initially ID'd CLE--but I digress...

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
They've been racing there what...?? 15-20 years...??
*That* long? And to think I've never heard of it--or at least realized it was at an airport...

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):
And it's pretty funny seeing cars going as fast (or faster?) as you typically see planes going on a runway - those touchdown zone markers whiz by pretty quick.
Y'know, whilst I was watching it, I kept looking in the background (again, thinking it was CLE and they wouldn't shut the whole airport down for a race...) for any a/c movements--but seeing those cars flying down the stretch was *awesome* TV, lol.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):
I also remember the commentators saying something to the effect that it was somewhat more challenging due to the runway's grooved surface.
Again, while I had the broadcast on, they went to their onboard car cameras several times and I've never seen a race car bounce like it did. The one commentator even said how the drivers need to oversteer (I think) a bit to hold their lines because of those groves.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 4):
I heard somewhere (not the most relable source) that because the runways and taxiways were used for the races they were mantained in better condition than an airport would normally see. It'd be interesting if it were true--and I'd expect that Champ Car racing chips in to cover those costs...


Quoting MarkC (Reply 5):
A few of the British road courses are ex WWII airbases.
Coooool! Definitely have to look into that.


Airwave

EDIT: Spelling, grammar, the usual...

[Edited 2006-06-26 06:27:44]
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SP90
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:16 am

It looks like this is the pattern the cars use. That's gotta be so cool to race at an airport. I wonder if there are any place around NYC where I can go to drive around in a closed track enviornment.

Big version: Width: 1119 Height: 847 File size: 156kb
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:43 pm

I guess Airports however Small have Runways & Taxitracks that can serve the Purpose of readymade Roads forsuch races.
Out here the Juhu Aerodrome is normally used for Occasional races.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
Remember last year a helicopter crashed in the middle of the race.

regds
MEL
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Stealthz
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:58 pm

Many airports have been used as race tracks, especcially in England where in the growth years (at least for racing) there were many airfields available.
Probably the most famous would be Silverstone the current home of the British F1 Grand Prix, from overhead shots you can see the runway layout and the track which follows roughly the perimeter road.
The difference with Cleveland is that the track is completely made up of runways and taxiways. This presents some problems for the drivers, the lack of visual references make braking and turning a difficult art to master and the surface is very rough compared to a dedicated race track.. even rougher than a street circuit.
Sebring in Florida where there was a very famous Sports car endurance race since the 50's was also an airport location.

A side note... the famous Gimli Glider, I beleive the auto races using that strip at the time had to abandon it so the 767 could glide in!
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lorm
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:50 pm

PHJR/Kalaeloa/John Rogers Ex-Barbers Point NAX was actually slated to have a CART - IndyCar(Predecessor of Champ Car World Series) race back in 1999, called the Hawaii Super Prix. The sponsorship and the organization never panned out and the race never took place. That was disappointing as I have a great view looking down directly into PHJR from my home.

It didn't really surprise me that the race never took place. Every press event on TV that aired was just the single promoter at a lone table. Most of the radio stations were also trying to promote it. They did however have the track basically laid out. I believe it was Mark Dismore who actually did some testing on the track. Even Mario Andretti came down early to Ala Moana Shopping Center to sign autographs and shirts and they had a car on display.
-L
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SlamClick
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:11 pm

I always used to look at airport diagrams and imagine road racing course on them. Newark NJ, (KEWR) is the best there is. You could lay out a thousand different circuits on those runways and taxiways. You could lay out a hundred different ones that would not disrupt flight ops.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Derek Hellmann


It even has ready-made chicanes.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
Remember last year a helicopter crashed in the middle of the race.

What caused this to occur.
regds
MEL
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litz
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
A side note... the famous Gimli Glider, I believe the auto races using that strip at the time had to abandon it so the 767 could glide in!

If I remember right, it was a drag strip ... and the people using it had no idea the 767 was on final until it was flaring for the landing. After all, no engines, no noise.  Smile

Someone just happened to look up, go OH SH*T, and start getting people out of the way. it was, after all, a CLOSED airport - nobody expected any kind of airplane to come in for a landing !

- litz
 
SlamClick
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 13):
If I remember right, it was a drag strip ...

It was, and only a lane incursion kept them from being top fuel eliminator that day.
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jamesbuk
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
Probably the most famous would be Silverstone the current home of the British F1 Grand Prix, from overhead shots you can see the runway layout and the track which follows roughly the perimeter road.

And is a pain in the arse for most races, because its an old airfield its prone to wind, most race cars hate wind!

Rgds --James--

P.S. Interesting topic
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dan2002
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting Airwave (Thread starter):
Was this race actually held at CLE? If so, what special rules are in effect for both the airport and Champ Car? Will they clean the runways to remove the rubber residue? I'm sure they'll be taking care of all the FOD that's around, but with all that, how soon until the runway is released back to the airport for use?

I dont think FOD would be an issue, I would assume that the cars themselves would be effected by FOD too, so I'm sure everything is kept clean. Anyhow, they've done it annually as far as I remember with no major problems.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 4):
Shameless self-plug: I live less than two miles down the (same) street

North Marginal?
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Stealthz
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:59 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 13):
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
A side note... the famous Gimli Glider, I believe the auto races using that strip at the time had to abandon it so the 767 could glide in!

If I remember right, it was a drag strip ...

From what many consider a fairly definitive description of the Gimli incident...
"To say that runway 32L was being used for auto racing is perhaps an understatement. Gimli's inactive runway had been "carved up" into a variety of racing courses, including the aforementioned dragstrip. Drag races were perhaps the only auto racing event not taking place on July 23rd, 1983 since this was "Family Day" for the Winnipeg Sports Car Club. Go-cart races were being held on one portion of runway 32L and just past the dragstrip another portion of the runway served as the final straightaway for a road course. Around the edges of the straightaway were cars, campers, kids, and families in abundance. To land an airplane in the midst of all of this activity was certain disaster."
http://www.wadenelson.com/gimli.html
Regards

[Edited 2006-06-29 01:06:08]
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EMBQA
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
What caused this to occur.

I think this is it........

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050629X00894&key=1
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ltbewr
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:45 am

A number of airports or sites were converted to car (and motorcycle) racing with Sebring, Florida being one of the best known and still used for. I believe the current Daytona race track site in Florida was also on the site of a WWII Military air base.
The use of airports as car racing venues in the USA became popular in the early 1950's. There had been several fatalities at public road based courses, most notably at Watkins Glen, NY. General Curtiss LeMay, then head of the Stragetic Air Command, a lover of sports cars, car racing and looking for some good publicity for the SAC and the US Air Force, then encouraged sports car racing at various Air Forces bases/fields.
Disused airports like Lakefront in Cleveland have also become racing venues.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 19):
Disused airports like Lakefront in Cleveland have also become racing venues.

Lakefront is not disused, it is an active airport for 362 days a year, Note the bizjet in the background of photo in reply 1
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:21 pm

The race scene in the Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour movie was filmed at RAF West Malling. I thought they were going to roll that bus turning into the runway from the taxiway. The video for "I Am the Walrus" was filmed there, too.



Mark
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HAWK21M
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:02 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
What caused this to occur.

I think this is it

Thanks for the Link.
regds
MEL
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lincoln
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 16):
North Marginal?

Yep  Smile Two miles east of the terminal on North Marginal -- right by the E. 55th/North Marginal/I-90 intersection/overpass.

Lincoln
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Jetlagged
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:06 pm

The problem with airfields as race circuits is that they are usually pretty flat, consequently less interesting than tracks with elevation changes. They also tend to be composed mainly of long straight stretches where the runways and perimeter tracks were.

The late, great Graham Hill was once asked about the significance of a particular "straightaway". He said it had none, except that it joined one corner to the next.

Of course if you are only used to the joys of oval racing, any kind of road race circuit will be interesting .... (exits to don flame proof suit).
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SlamClick
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 24):
they are usually pretty flat, consequently less interesting than tracks with elevation changes.

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Tod
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
Note to Ecclestone: Get Spa back on the calendar at any cost!

 checkmark 

Another one with racing is KPWT in Bremerton, Washington.

Tod
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
The difference with Cleveland is that the track is completely made up of runways and taxiways. This presents some problems for the drivers, the lack of visual references make braking and turning a difficult art to master and the surface is very rough compared to a dedicated race track.. even rougher than a street circuit.

Very true, Cleveland is probably the most difficult circuit if you've ever played the Cleveland track on the CART sims (which are unfortunately 10 years old now), just impossible to pick braking points and apexes. But the wide runways make racing always entertaining and there's plenty of good overtaking spots. One of CART's better races, no doubt about that.

It's just a shame CART is a shadow of its former self and I haven't watched a Cleveland race for years. The last time I watched is on ESPN Classic with a replay of the 1996 race. That was a good one.

As mentioned before there are plenty of UK airfields used for racing nowadays, Top Gear uses one for its track shots (can't remember where it is now but there are several threads on it here), and most of the UK car magazines go testing at airfield tracks too.

Doesn't some of the Formula One teams hire airfields for a day to do straightline shakedown run or aerodynamic data gathering? I remember Stewart Grand Prix had its first F1 run at an airfield, and BAR/Honda Racing regularly do straightline tests at some airfield too?
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MrChips
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:44 pm

On the topic of airports being used as racetracks, the second most famous race track in the UK is on an airport, that being the Top Gear test track at Dunsfold Park Aerodrome near Guildford.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4604/tgtrack9vi.jpg
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MesaMXORD
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:39 am

Do they have the CVR transcripts for this?
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Jetlagged
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:35 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
Note to Ecclestone: Get Spa back on the calendar at any cost!

Sadly Bernie puts money first, and spectator interest last.

Bring back Spa, and I'd add Watkins Glen and Brands Hatch to that list.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 30):
Bring back Spa, and I'd add Watkins Glen and Brands Hatch to that list.

I suppose the old Nurburgring is too much to ask.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Tod
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
I suppose the old Nurburgring is too much to ask.

Too many TV cameras required  Wink

And you would have to find some real drivers.
Most of the guys that could drive that track won't fit in a modern F1 car anymore.

Maybe JV could get the job done, but I don't about the rest of the current crop of drivers  duck 

Tod
 
lorm
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
I suppose the old Nurburgring is too much to ask.

Complete with all the jumps and dips and that would be gravy... Big grin I wonder how many spectacular blow over style accidents we'd see though...
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TPAnx
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:51 am

Sections of Albert Whitted Airport (on the waterfront in Saint Petersburg, FL)have been used for Indy car racing . But they also utilize city streets.
Don't know if the rest of the airport is open to air traffic during the race.
TPAnx
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IFEMaster
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:09 am

The Gimli Glider landed on a raceday. The plane was still there the next day when racing commenced...

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Stealthz
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 35):
The Gimli Glider landed on a raceday

Was there something in replies 9,13,14 & 17 that you missed??
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 36):
Was there something in replies 9,13,14 & 17 that you missed??

 eyebrow  No. The purpose of my post was the picture.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:04 pm

What caused the Gear to collapse on Landing.Was it because it would not lock mechanically due to Hyd loss.
Isn't the NLG extended Down & Aft.
regds
MEL
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IFEMaster
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RE: Airport Runways As Raceways

Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 38):
What caused the Gear to collapse on Landing.

You answered your own question...

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 38):
because it would not lock mechanically due to Hyd loss

 checkmark 
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