JulianUK
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Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:24 am

On modern commercial aircraft if there was a problem with the brakes before you landed are you going to be warned? and if you were to land with one side not braking as well as the other side because of a fault what would alert you first - warnings in the cockpit or the aircraft pulling to one side unexpectedly and is there any standard operation procedure if this happens - is it release all brakes or try to operate the brakes on the other side to conteract the lack of brakes on the other side?
 
SlamClick
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting Julianuk (Thread starter):
modern

If by 'modern' we mean anything designed in the last ten or fifteen years, there is probably some warning that will alert us as soon as the fault is detected. Older than that - it depends on some things, but there is usually at least a brake pressure gauge, at which we could take a glance before landing.

How soon? Really immediately. I've been advised of lost tire pressure over the middle of Greenland. We just shook our heads over that. Honestly, at that point, what good is that knowledge? Gear is in the well, airport is five hours away. What are we supposed to do? Fret?

Smaller aircraft, you can be in for a big surprise. Landing is often not a problem as you can just let it roll out, most places. Taxiing is the problem.

One time at LAX in a C-402 I was offered an intersection that was just behind me at the same moment a 727 entered my taxiway ahead of me. I hit the brakes (I was alone in the airplane) and one brake failed. I did a really fast 180 on the taxiway. So I just told them I'd accept the intersection they'd just given me. They never knew my brakes had failed. I got to fly the plane home and let our own mechanics fix it.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Smaller aircraft, you can be in for a big surprise. Landing is often not a problem as you can just let it roll out, most places. Taxiing is the problem.

I lost the left-side brake once in A C-210 upon landing at MMCU (Chihuahua, Mexico). Once I figured out the problem on the runway, our landing roll became much longer than a typical 210 landing...we had to use the mid-field taxiway turnout. Taxiing a 210 on one brake isn't too bad, you can now only do brake turns in one direction  Smile (Finding a mechanic in Mexico on the field who works on light planes is another matter...as is paying him in what is pretty much a cash-only economy).

Applying normal brakes, when you expect them both to work and only one functions can make for rude suprise. Fortunately, the runway was, ahem, wide, so we didn't deviate too far from the centerline...stayed on the pavement, nothing dramatic. Kind of like a car with a master cylinder problem, the toe pedal on the left side mushed all the way to the floor.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:48 pm

"Modern" Aircraft have Indications to tell of a Problem when its detected.
It also depends on what is causing that problem.Hydraulic Loss,Line Breakage or something else.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
SlamClick
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2):
Taxiing a 210 on one brake isn't too bad, you can now only do brake turns in one direction

I knew I had the problem but this was a really funny experience.

I blew a tire in a Cessna 206 on a small town airport. The mechanic came out with a home-made shop creeper, four castering wheels on a stiff plywood platform. He jacked up my right main and slid that under the flat tire. Then I had to taxi from where I was, over to his shop. Steerable nosewheel, normal left main with brake, castering wheels on the right mount. We got there but it wasn't elegant.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting Julianuk (Thread starter):
On modern commercial aircraft if there was a problem with the brakes before you landed are you going to be warned?

On all the new aircraft there are tons of ways to determine what the problem is.

First of all, if it's a hydraulic failure, you will have more to worry about than just brakes. However, on the 744, there is the status page. If you have a problem with any system that's monitored, and the brake systems are monitored, you will get a status message. From that status message you can get into the CMC (Central Maintenance Computer) and just go to "present leg faults" and find out what you have wrong. From that point, it's just a matter of looking up in the MEL or FCOM to find out what you need to do.
Fly fast, live slow
 
fr8mech
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:59 am

OK, not to be a smartass but, if one brake metering valve fails on a newer Boeing, what's the message?

I'm not sure there is one. You have anti-skid failure messages and auto-brake failure messages, but a straight failure of one side of your brake system? I'm not so sure.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 6):
OK, not to be a smartass but, if one brake metering valve fails on a newer Boeing, what's the message?

I don't have a MEL with me. But I go LAX-PVG on Friday and will have plenty of time to look it up. You should get a status message....
Fly fast, live slow
 
n8076u
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:05 am

Even on a modern airliner, it is entirely possible for there to be some sort of mechanical problem which won't be detected (either by the aircraft or by the pilot) until you land and actually try to use the brakes. But most likely, this would be an issue with one brake, rather than the entire left or right braking system.

Chris
Don't blame me, I don't work here...
 
KELPkid
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
I blew a tire in a Cessna 206 on a small town airport. The mechanic came out with a home-made shop creeper, four castering wheels on a stiff plywood platform. He jacked up my right main and slid that under the flat tire. Then I had to taxi from where I was, over to his shop. Steerable nosewheel, normal left main with brake, castering wheels on the right mount. We got there but it wasn't elegant.

So tell me, how does the Stationair taxi on a skate?  Wink That had to have been pretty funky...I'm suprised the shop creeper could take the weight!
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
fr8mech
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
I don't have a MEL with me. But I go LAX-PVG on Friday and will have plenty of time to look it up. You should get a status message....

I'll check the B757/B767, MD11 & A300 books, but I'm thinking an internal failure will not generate any message. Even after the fact. I'm pretty sure the only systems monitored are the A/S & A/B other than temp.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Tg 747-300
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:07 am

Once lost my left brake in a C152 upon landing . With me as a fresh student pilot with somewhere around 10 hrs under my belt it sure was interessting. Luckily my instructor was in the right seat. Touched down as normal, but when I applied brakes we started to turn to the right. Suprised as I was I hit the brakes harder, which of course only worsened the situation. Ended up with one wheel in the grass, and an experience more under my belt.

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 10):
'll check the B757/B767, MD11 & A300 books,

B752 Brakes EICAS Messages are Mainly related to A/B, A/S,Brake Source,PSEU.
If One Metering Valve is Malfunctioning.Theres an Alt,But Doubt there would be EICAS Message with no Leak.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
flyf15
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:36 pm

On the CRJ, the brakes are not set up as one side is one system and the other side is another. Instead, the inboard brakes are on one hydraulic system and the outboards are on another. So, if you were to loose one entire side, most likely you've lost the entire other side too as that would mean that there are problems with both systems.

As far as knowing about problems, we can get the following messages/indications on the EICAS about brake problems:

IN or OB BRAKE PRESS (caution): Problem with either the inboard or outboard brake hydraulic pressures

A/SKID INBD or OUTBD (caution): Problem with either the inboard or outboard brake anti-skid systems

BRAKE OVHT (warning): Overheat condition on at least one brake

We also have a system that continously monitors, displays, and color codes the brake temperatures on a scale of 1-20.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:46 pm

On the MD-11 unless it's hyd ,anti-skid or autobrake fail there won't be a brake failure warn. Losing ALL the brakes on one side seems a little impossible unless it's hyd then as PhilSquares said there's other problems to deal with. It's not all that uncommon to see 1 brake on 1 wheel not work as well as the other 3 due to wear or metering valve, etc and that will show up on the brake temp and config page. Brake overheat does give a warning.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 9):
...I'm suprised the shop creeper could take the weight!

It was not really a shop creeper like you can buy, I just didn't know how else to describe it. It was about a 2'x3' plywood platform maybe four inches above the ground, with a heavy duty castering wheel at each corner. They'd obviously built it themselves. They might have used it to move engines, or oil drums or something.

I can't imagine the bearings lasting very long using it as we did. When I was a student pilot a friend and I took turns towing each other up and down the taxiways on a regular shop creeper, behind my BSA motorcycle. You had to lay face down on the creeper, head forward worked best. With your face inches off the pavement, at about 25-30 mph it felt like you were doing two hundred! It was absolute insanity but we wore the wheel bearings out of his creeper before one of us got killed. Picked it up after one run and all four wheels fell off.  Smile
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
2H4
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:50 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
You had to lay face down on the creeper, head forward worked best. With your face inches off the pavement, at about 25-30 mph it felt like you were doing two hundred!

Oh, to have photos.....

 biggrin 



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
wing
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:00 pm

Here are two comparisons for you from the infamous runway 06-24 of LTBA(IST).Left side of the picture you can see a possibble brake failure(as it was reported by the newspapers) and the right side of the picture how you can still over run the runway with your brakes working but hydroplaned this time.




http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/WING321/Haziran2006e351me021.jpg
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HAWK21M
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:39 pm

Just Curious.Which Aircraft was this Pic taken from.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 6):
OK, not to be a smartass but, if one brake metering valve fails on a newer Boeing, what's the message?

To answer your question, NO! Only a status message on the brake failure, if you lose hyd press/quantity, torque limiter,anti-skid but nothing for the metering valve itself. After spending 3+ hours reviewing the MEL between LAX - PVG
Fly fast, live slow
 
fr8mech
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):

That's what I found in the other aircraft also.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
David L
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):
After spending 3+ hours reviewing the MEL between LAX - PVG

See how we control your lives?  Smile

Obviously it's something you haven't needed to know by heart to go about your business and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates the extra effort.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting David L (Reply 21):
See how we control your lives?

Yes, but it's a 13+ hour flight! Have to have something to do. Believe me, there are very few things I know by heart. I learned a long time ago, that's how you get into trouble.
Fly fast, live slow
 
wing
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:34 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Just Curious.Which Aircraft was this Pic taken from.
regds
MEL

I took it from my A320.  Smile
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting Wing (Reply 23):
I took it from my A320

Nice One.Trust you may have others you can Share  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wing
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Nice One.Trust you may have others you can Share
regds

I have alot of pictures I took from my various flights,but unfortunately I have never reached to a standart to upload at A.Net data base.  Sad
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Brake Failure On One Side - Know Before?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Wing (Reply 25):
I have alot of pictures I took from my various flights,but unfortunately I have never reached to a standart to upload at A.Net data base.

Theres Always http://www.myaviation.net & http://www.flickr.com
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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