747400sp
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Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:05 am

When I found out that the KC-135A did not have trust reverser, I was shock. I did not thick a jet of that size would be safe to land with out trust reverser. Now when I see a picture of a 707 powered by JT3-c or JT4-a. To me they look like they did not have trust reverser. So do turbo jet powered Boeing 707 have trust reverser?


PS: I already been told that KC-135A/R, do not land on small runways. I just saying this in case somebody wants to tell me how safe a landing in KC135A/R is.
 
777wt
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:39 am

The 707 did have thrust reversers.
The early generation did reverse both the cold and the hot section, this was discovered to be a problem later on from the hot section.

I think later designs were changed to only have the cold section reverse and the hot section disabled or locked out.
 
liedetectors
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I did not thick a jet of that size would be safe to land with out trust reverser.

When the KC135 was designed, they had to figure a stoping distance for the airplane. When you compute landing distance you cannot assume the use of TRs as means of stopping the airplane. So whether the plane has then or not, the landing distance had to be computed without them. So course its safe to land it with out TRs.
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n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 1):
I think later designs were changed to only have the cold section reverse and the hot section disabled or locked out.

Yes, the 707 had reverse thrust. I also agree that the turbofan versions had both hot (core exhaust) and cold (bypassed air) reverser mechanisms.

The "classic" 747 with JT9Ds was originally designed with both hot and cold section reversers, but the turbine reversers were eventually disabled and locked out as they were quite troublesome and the cables that moved the turbine blocker doors needed frequent lubrication due to all the heat. Therefore, even though the mechanisms were different on the 707s, I could see that disabling the hot section reverser could have benefits.

Quoting Liedetectors (Reply 2):
So course its safe to land it with out TRs.

If I am not mistaken, the A380 only has reverse thrust capability on the two inboard engines, so they can't be that important.  Wink

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Starlionblue
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
When I found out that the KC-135A did not have trust reverser, I was shock. I did not thick a jet of that size would be safe to land with out trust reverser.

As Liedetectors says, landing distances are computer without factoring in thrust reversers. Brakes are quite enough to stop a jet. Landing distance calculations have a 50% pad factor built in anyway. Most pax would probably puke up their lunches (ok, First Class which actually gets food) if the pilots really stomped on the brakes with their size 12s. Brakes are that good.

I would add that the 380 only has 2 thrust reversers for various reasons, demonstrating the point.

In the day the KC-135 (AKA Boeing model 717) was designed, they were not as good as today, but still made up the lion's share of an aircraft's stopping capability.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:44 am




Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
As Liedetectors says, landing distances are computer without factoring in thrust reversers.

That's not the case with all aircraft, though. The 737-700 landing distance calculations take use of the reversers into account. This policy, however, is under review after the MDW overrun.




2H4


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aeroweanie
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:23 pm

I think you can see the thrust reverser outlets in these two pictures - they are the screen ahead of the daisy lobe mixer:


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They might be active in this picture (I think I can see the blocker door):


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HAWK21M
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:03 pm


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n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:40 pm

That's a cool pic. No oil puddle under the engine?  Wink

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Stealthz
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 1):
The early generation did reverse both the cold and the hot section, this was discovered to be a problem later on from the hot section

Is it just me, my understanding is that the TurboJet 707 would not have a cold section?

Mel, that is a cool pic but is NOT a turbojet 707, that is a fan engine

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RichardPrice
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:18 pm

KC-135s dont have thrust reverse because the Air Force specifically didnt want them - less weight, less maintenance and less cost.

The KC-135s were always supposed to land near empty, so they wouldnt require thrust reversers.
 
vc10
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:53 pm

The Boeing 707 -436 with RR Conway engines definitely only had hot exhaust reversers

littlevc10
 
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting Vc10 (Reply 11):
The Boeing 707 -436 with RR Conway engines definitely only had hot exhaust reversers

Maybe that's because the cold airflow is very small on this early turbofan.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
vc10
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:25 pm

The RR Conway [just to be picky] was a by-pass engine where some of the air missed the combustion chamber but stayed within the body of the engine unlike a by-pass where the fan air is normally external to the engine.

The by-pass air was however quite small I would agree

littlevc10  Wink
 
747400sp
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:33 am

Oh I know the B-707 with turbo fans has trust reverser I just talking about the turbo jet version.

PS: The USAF wanted there KC-135 crew to work there buts off. I see there no going back early on a 135.
 
dairbus
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:44 am

I know this is off topic, but did anyone notice the AKH type containers and what appears to be a small K-loader being used in the picture of the TWA 707? I had no idea that they used narrowbody containers that long ago. I have only seen them on A320's and A321's.


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2H4
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:54 am




Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
trust reverser



Quoting 747400sp (Reply 14):
trust reverser

...Just a friendly reminder....it's thrust reverser....not "trust" reverser.

Although aging systems in 707s and KC-135s surely erode the flight crew's trust in the machine, there is no one system dedicated solely to that task.

 Wink



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HAWK21M
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting DAirbus (Reply 15):
I had no idea that they used narrowbody containers that long ago

Could be just transporting Cargo in it,Using them as a Trolley.My Guess.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
...Just a friendly reminder....it's thrust reverser....not "trust" reverser.

Hehe. It's certainly not the oft used in gen_av variant "reverse thruster". Such can be found on the Starship Enterprise, however.
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n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting DAirbus (Reply 15):
did anyone notice the AKH type containers and what appears to be a small K-loader being used in the picture of the TWA 707? I had no idea that they used narrowbody containers that long ago. I have only seen them on A320's and A321's.

I never saw a 707 use containers, so I learned something new today.  Wink It does look similar to the narrowbody Airbus containers...

Some DC-8's, at least some UA ones, had a containerized lower lobe cargo system. But the containers were round-bottomed, and not anything standard to any other aircraft. They had special dollies the containers fit into. They called them "gondolas" due to the shape.  Wink They loaded into the aircraft from the bottom, rather than the side, and the aircraft had a hoist system to lift them up into the belly.

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bohica
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting DAirbus (Reply 15):
I know this is off topic, but did anyone notice the AKH type containers and what appears to be a small K-loader being used in the picture of the TWA 707? I had no idea that they used narrowbody containers that long ago. I have only seen them on A320's and A321's.

Western Airlines used containers in their 707's, 720's and 727's. The containers were known as LD-W.
 
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
Is it just me, my understanding is that the TurboJet 707 would not have a cold section?

On a 'straight-pipe' turbojet engine all the air that gets scooped in the intake of the nacelle goes through the core of the engine, gets fuel sprayed into it, gets ignited and spins the turbines on its way out. (Except the relatively small amount extracted as 'bleed' air.) So, as there is no fan and bypass ducting, yep, it is pretty much all hot.

Not real familiar with the earliest 707s, aside from going down to SFO just too see one, and later taking a couple of rides on them. I do believe, however, that they were a straight turbojet and not a fanjet until some later version.

And I never knew until reading this thread that they did have reverse thrust on the model with the multi-pipe diffuser.
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n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21):
Not real familiar with the earliest 707s, aside from going down to SFO just too see one, and later taking a couple of rides on them. I do believe, however, that they were a straight turbojet and not a fanjet until some later version.

You believe right, the earlier ones were turbojet powered, just like the DC-8's. And if I am not mistaken, some of the turbojet 707s also had water injection.

Chris
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DL_Mech
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting N8076U (Reply 19):
I never saw a 707 use containers, so I learned something new today.

TW used them as well on 727's. They were removed later on, like the IFE TW had on 727-100's/-200's.

[Edited 2006-06-29 07:37:14]
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sovietjet
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting N8076U (Reply 22):
And if I am not mistaken, some of the turbojet 707s also had water injection.

You are not...


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n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:15 am

Just can't help getting goosebumps seeing a photo like that.  Smile

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HAWK21M
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:45 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 24):

Show that pic to a PUC officer & he'd be shocked  Smile
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RC135U
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:48 pm

Noise abatement? What noise abatement?  Wink
 
MarkC
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:05 am

The C-17 engines have an extra thrust reverser for the core as compared to a regular 2040. Its all in the exhaust nozzle. Its a blocker door arrangement similar to a fan reverser. Is this the only high bypass engine with a core reverser? Anyone know?
 
n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting MarkC (Reply 28):
Is this the only high bypass engine with a core reverser? Anyone know?

I mentioned something regarding this in one of my posts. Some of the JT9Ds had them as well, on the "classic" 747s. But whether there are any that still have that feature operational is very doubtful.

Chris
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411A
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:27 pm

Yes, water injection.
300 gallons or so (IIRC) of de-mineralized water, carried in saddle tanks near the wing root trailing edge, with two pumps, one pump in each tank, left and right.

Pump #1 fed engines one and two.
Pump #2 fed engines three and four.

A poorly thought out arrangement, but that's the way Boeing designed it.
The water flowed for approximately 2.5 minutes at FULL takeoff thrust, whereupon the tanks were then dry, and at this time, the pumps ceased operating, and were switched off.

How much thrust augmentation was provided with water injection?

About 2800 additional pounds, as I recall, and it definitely made a difference.

When the water stopped, it felt as though the throttles had been pulled back about halfway, and the climb nearly stopped, at 'round about 230 knots or so.
However, once acceleration was accomplished in level flight, climb could then be commenced once again, at 260 knots, approximately.

I only flew water wagons a short while...and that was certainly long enough.
JT4A and Conway powered aircraft were much better performers.

About thrust reverse on these straight-pipe engines.
Not much stopping power...mostly noise.

Fan reversers were MUCH more effective.

[Edited 2006-07-01 08:30:25]
 
n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 30):
Yes, water injection.

Some of the JT9D powered ex-Qantas 747-238's that UA had also originally used water injection. Even though UA never used it, some of the vestiges of that system remained in place, but not the tanks or pumps.

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747400sp
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:46 am

N8076U


To bad UA did not use those water injection. I seen some of there ex-Qantas 747-238's take off for flight from LAX-HNL, I would have love to hear a extra loud 747 on take off.
 
n8076u
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 32):
To bad UA did not use those water injection.

I would have liked to see that myself, but I suspect the plumes of black smoke may have been somewhat objectionable.  Wink Far too many "environmentally friendly" folks with a nice view of the airport and such.

Those planes were unique in many ways from the more "standard" 747s that UA had, so I consider myself lucky to have had the chance to work on them before they were retired from the fleet.

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sovietjet
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:20 am

Why does the water make so much black smoke?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 34):
Why does the water make so much black smoke?

My guess is that combustion was less complete, so you got a lots of soot suspended in water droplets. But that's just a guess.
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73G
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
The 737-700 landing distance calculations take use of the reversers into account. This policy, however, is under review after the MDW overrun.

That's not entirely true. For purposes of preflight planning, the 73G factored landing distance calculation is the same as with all other airplanes. Thrust reversers are not taken into account. Southwest Airlines uses an FAA-approved On-board performance computer (OPC) that allows them to make various calculations, including landing distance calculations, enroute. The benefit of an OPC is obvious as the crew can make instaneous performance calcuations in real-time without having to contact their dispatcher. The downside is what happened at MDW.
 
AmericanAirFan
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:06 am

Yes some did even Air Memphis's Current day versions which use the bucket type like you would see on the JT8D engines on the DC-9 and 737-200 series.


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okelleynyc
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
I would add that the 380 only has 2 thrust reversers for various reasons, demonstrating the point.

I'm curious about this; could you elaborate?

Is it because the outboard engines may bleed over the runway and suck up debris? Is it to minimize an asymmetric event in case on side doesn't deploy? Do you use the two inboard engines to keep the thrust reversers as close to the centerline as possible? And lastly, do the 747s only have inboard thrust reversers as well?

Thanks, and sorry for all the questions.

EDIT!!!! Just saw the other thread, so disregard. However, I am curious to know if the asymmetric thrust situation is a consideration....

[Edited 2006-07-04 03:40:08]
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 38):

EDIT!!!! Just saw the other thread, so disregard. However, I am curious to know if the asymmetric thrust situation is a consideration....

Lol. I don't think asymmetric thrust is a problem in this regard.
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Jetlagged
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
I don't think asymmetric thrust is a problem in this regard.

On a four engined aircraft reversers are usually operated in symmetric pairs. If you only have two reversers and one of these is failed you will of course use the reverser you have asymmetrically as necessary. However, on a wet or icy runway thrust asymmetry becomes an issue particularly at lower speeds. Not much lateral friction to keep you on the runway. Asymmetric reverse thrust will tend to drag you off one side of the runway. Not a happy experience in an A380, or anything else for that matter.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 40):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
I don't think asymmetric thrust is a problem in this regard.

On a four engined aircraft reversers are usually operated in symmetric pairs. If you only have two reversers and one of these is failed you will of course use the reverser you have asymmetrically as necessary. However, on a wet or icy runway thrust asymmetry becomes an issue particularly at lower speeds. Not much lateral friction to keep you on the runway. Asymmetric reverse thrust will tend to drag you off one side of the runway. Not a happy experience in an A380, or anything else for that matter.

I was unclear. Of course you would probably not operate the reversers asymetrically. However this consideration probably didn't affect the design of the 380.
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2H4
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:54 am




Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
Of course you would probably not operate the reversers asymetrically.

I've observed 737 pilots use a single reverser when landing with an engine out during training sessions.




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AmericanAirFan
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 42):
I've observed 737 pilots use a single reverser when landing with an engine out during training sessions.




2H4

Probably same principles as a single engine taxi you would just use nose wheel steering to force against any engine yawing. And just being firmly planted on the ground I'm sure asymmetric thrust like that isn't as big of a problem.

Awesome topic here I read every article.  Smile

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411A
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:52 am

>>And just being firmly planted on the ground I'm sure asymmetric thrust like that isn't as big of a problem.<<

Except on snow/ice covered runways, or wet runways with significant crosswinds, or indeed a variety of other conditions.
 
vc10
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:18 pm

On every aircraft I have been on you cannot use nosewheel steering until quite low speeds so I do not think it would be used to counter any assymetric reverse thrust more probably assymetric wheel brake use, at least initially

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b52murph
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RE: Did Turbo Jet Powered 707 Have Trust Reverser?

Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
In the day the KC-135 (AKA Boeing model 717) was designed, they were not as good as today, but still made up the lion's share of an aircraft's stopping capability.

The USAF also saw little need for reverse thrust on the KC-135s because most SAC base runways where the tankers would be flying from were over 11,000 feet long. The KC-135A, KC/EC/RC-135B (TF-33 engines), and the CFM-powered KC-135Rs also do not have thrust reversers. The exception to the series in the fan-powered KC-135E which received engines from 707s retired to the Davis-Monthan boneyard.

As a side note, the AF Reserve unit stationed at ORD (don't remember if they're still there), stayed with the E-model KC-135 becuase they needed the reverse thrust to slow down and get out of the way quickly after landing at busy O'Hare.

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