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HAWK21M
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Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:09 pm

How Effective are Supplemental Heating Systems on Todays commercial Aircraft.
eg. On the B752.The Foot,Shoulder & Pax Door Area heating.
If there was no Foot & Shoulder heating,but Control Cabin temp was varied to comfort level.Would that not suffice.
Also Is the Door heating retained on most Pax converted Freighters.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MechEngineer
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:16 am

As in a car, where in (a Bavarian) winter you have the choice of either seeing through the windscreen where you're going, OR not having hot, dry air blowing into your eyes, zonal heating/cooling still isn't really satisfactorily sorted out in passenger aircraft.
The FD 728 prototype was sold to the DLR to serve as a test fuselage to investigate solutions for just this problem, and I recall the 328 having extra heating in the forward door area for FAs as a customer option.
Heavier-than-air flying machines...
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Also Is the Door heating retained on most Pax converted Freighters.

I've removed it on the pax to frieghter conversions I've done.

Quoting MechEngineer (Reply 1):
zonal heating/cooling still isn't really satisfactorily sorted out in passenger aircraft.

777 also adds supplement heat at foot level in the galleys that have chilled carts.

Seperate electric heaters are also common for enclosed crew rests on 747 and 777.

Tod
 
n8076u
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:23 am

I don't think this would be considered "supplemental" but the upper deck zone on the classic 747s did not have its own trim air valve like the other main deck zones, and so the upper deck area had electric heaters instead, to warm up the supply air to the correct temperature.

Chris
Don't blame me, I don't work here...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:38 pm

Quoting Tod (Reply 2):
I've removed it on the pax to frieghter conversions I've done.

Which Type.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
Which Type.

Mechanical systems engineering:

A bunch of 742
743
762
A300B4

Proposals that did not sell:
737
757
744

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 5):
Proposals that did not sell:

Any Reasons for the B737 & B757 not doing well.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:22 am

The 747-200 Combis had side cargo door heating, presumably for when there were passengers seated in the cargo area. I assume this is because the side door won't have any air-conditioning vents and risers and therefore quite a large area which would be much colder without such supplemental heating.

Most 747-200's had trim air valves for the cockpit and upper deck zones. Early aircraft, such as 747-100's did not and had the electric heaters mentioned by N8076U.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
Quoting Tod (Reply 5):
Proposals that did not sell:

Any Reasons for the B737 & B757 not doing well.

Just business, someone else did it cheaper.

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 8):
Just business, someone else did it cheaper

Presumingly the STC was the Same.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Presumingly the STC was the Same.

Nope.

Flight Structures does all their own engineering and is the STC holder for all their pax to freighter conversions.

I don't who holds 737 conversion STC's, but Precision was applying for their own STC for their 757 program when I spoke to them a couple of years ago.

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:35 pm

Could the Different STCs have contribute to the Cost Variation.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
Could the Different STCs have contribute to the Cost Variation.

Yes, the cost of getting an STC issued can vary quite a bit.
The variables include, but are not limited to whether you go through a DAS or an FAA ACO, which FAA region you are dealing with, your working relationship with the FAA and of course whether you are ammending an existing STC or starting from scratch.

That said, in the case of these freighter conversions, I don't believe that the certification costs are what drove the pricing differential, but since I was not privy to all the sales related price/cost data, that is just a guess.

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Tod (Reply 12):
your working relationship with the FAA

How does that vary costs.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
Quoting Tod (Reply 12):
your working relationship with the FAA

How does that vary costs.

If your company has done things in the past that the FAA was not happy with, the FAA can make life difficult and costly.

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 14):
the FAA can make life difficult and costly.

Ok.So you keep them Happy.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
So you keep them Happy.

  
  
  

Not always easy though.

Tod

[Edited 2006-07-06 21:26:48]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:17 pm

During a B757 conversion to Freighter.What Items do you normally Knock off typically.How long is the Conversion time.Would 3 months be adequate.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
During a B757 conversion to Freighter.What Items do you normally Knock off typically

Remove:
All interior furniture
All entertainment systems
Windows
Lav/galley vent system
gasper system (if present)
Pax oxygen systems
Unused conditioned air branches
Unused portions of water supply and drains.
all but one potable water tank
all but one excape slides
Doorway heated air
unused wiring and electronics
stairway and cartlift (747 only)



modify/replace waste system
modify/replace one water tank
modify/replace one lav
replace/modify main conditioned air ducting
modify fwd lower deck heating
modify hydraulics to add cargo door actuator system
modify smoke detection system
reroute misc hydraulic and pitot lines
replace sidewalls with cargo lining


replace floor panels
add 9g bulkhead
add lots of floor structure
add cargo handling system
add cargo door (except on some package freighters)
add structure for door and bulkhead
add overboard lav venting
add cargo floor drain system
add supernumerary seating and stowage
add one small galley
add emergency equipement
add flightdeck ram air inlet (747 only - IIRC)
add crew ladder (747 only)


I am sure there is a bunch more, but as you can see by my list, I am a mechanical systems guy and tend to see the plane through that little funnel.
Feel free to pile on  Smile

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Would 3 months be adequate.

Not on the first one of a new design and not if it is the first one a mod facility has done. A big factor in the timeline is the quality of the engineering and the quality of the mod facility and the resources that they put toward the program. I've seen things get ugly and go well over six months.

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:18 pm

Would a 9G Net be as Effective as a 9G bulkhead.Apart from added weight & visual interest.What would be its Advantage of the Bulkhead.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
What would be its Advantage of the Bulkhead.

The problem with a net is that you have to allow for a lot of deflection and place the net much further back in the aircraft. It is not uncommon to get one more container position with a rigid bulkhead.

Tod
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 20):
It is not uncommon to get one more container position with a rigid bulkhead.

If not Mistaken the B757 Freighters of UPS opted for the 9G Bulkhead where as DHL opted for the 9G net.
Whats the Material used to make up the Net.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MechEngineer
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:56 pm

It also depends on what is in front of that bulkhead or net. If it's a cargo courier area or cross aisle to the cockpit you may need a gas-tight bulkhead to contain the fire depressing gas (halon) that is released into the cargo bay if there is a fire there.
Heavier-than-air flying machines...
 
Tod
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RE: Supplemental Heating Systems - Effectivity

Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting MechEngineer (Reply 22):
If it's a cargo courier area or cross aisle to the cockpit you may need a gas-tight bulkhead to contain the fire depressing gas (halon) that is released into the cargo bay if there is a fire there.

 checkmark 

In that situation, the bulkhead must be able to pass an FAA smoke penetration test.

Tod

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