lufthansi
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What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:36 am

Look at the standby horizon. What is going on there? Power cut? Pulled CB? Special training cannot be the reason even if the photographer reported an instrucor on board. They don't do this kind of training with folks behind joining them. At least I hope so. Does anybody know the reason for the horizon in off mode?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1077797/M/
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:51 am

The instruments are actually on. You can see them faintly. What you are seeing is a lighting effect caused by the camera. That is, the cockpit is bright from outside light, and when a picture is taken shutter speed is too short to capture enough light from the MFDs to make them visible.

Sort of like trying to watch an image projected on the wall in a very light room. Your eyes are adjusted to the bright light and the projected image seems faint.

[Edited 2006-07-18 21:52:14]
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LimaFoxTango
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:55 am

I think he's refering to the standby attitude indicator which appears to be toppled with an off/fail flag as well.
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AvionicMech
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:58 am

Starlionblue, I believe he is referring to the standby horizon and not the MFD's. If you look at the standby horizon in the middle you will see that it has toppled and that the failure flag is in view. Although I cannot give a reason for this though I am afraid, as I am a Boeing man and don't know much about the Scarebuses.  Wink
 
lufthansi
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:20 am

Right. i know the screens are on. I can clearly see the red tag at the F/Os display which indicates the ground.

But the horizon is off. No illusion for sure. So anybody else having some ideas or maybe facts? Is this thing covered by MEL?
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:57 am

Aaaaah....
.
.
.
.
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boeingfixer
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:38 am

I would say it's highly probable that the standby ADI failed in flight.

As for being MEL'able, you can't MEL it on Boeings so I highly doubt it can be MEL'd on Airbuses.
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FinnWings
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:49 pm

This seems to be a school flight without passengers. As far as I know AY flew some school flights where Captains were from Airbus like in this picture.

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 6):
As for being MEL'able, you can't MEL it on Boeings so I highly doubt it can be MEL'd on Airbuses.

What about for a ferry/schoolflight without passengers in VFR conditions? For example, if they do just touch and go landings in visual conditions do they need operational standby horizon?

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buckfifty
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:33 pm

The standby instruments can be covered under the MEL on the 340, as long as the primary instruments are in good working order. No requirement for VFR flight either.

I have seen one inflight when it just toppled. In fact, they're quite shoddy, IMO, and they're just barely enough as a backup on their own, especially the backup airspeed indicator.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:30 am

On A320 as well the standby ASI and RDDMI can both be inop if everything else is working. Sounds strange when its no go on a B737.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
On A320 as well the standby ASI and RDDMI can both be inop if everything else is working. Sounds strange when its no go on a B737.

Could it be that since the Airbi are FBW there is more redundancy built into the primary systems compared to the 737?
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NoUFO
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:48 am

Let's see, I have cropped the photo and brightened the screens as well as the analogue backup horizon (I believe it's merely a backup).



To me, it looks as if the horizon can easily be substituted by what the pilots see on their left and right MFDs.
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lufthansi
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:24 am

Ok. So flying is no problems as an inop stdby horizon can be released acc MEL. But does anyone know the reason? The photographer himself? I mean this one is new to Finnair. Have they bought it like this? A burned reading light is no great deal. Who cares on delivery flight... But this fault seems to be not so good for a new (used) plane. It's like bying a car with the right mirror missing. Sure I can look at the left and middle one. But it should have three. And a mirror is not as expensive as this instrument. This for sure are more than 1000$. Any garantee for Finnair?  Smile
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Lufthansi (Reply 12):
. This for sure are more than 1000$. Any garantee for Finnair?

It's not as if an engine is broken on delivery. This is an easily replaced item that it most probably under warranty.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wing
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:07 am

Even the brand new airplanes can have broken parts.Thats called "electronics" and the maint. folks can understand what I mean.Pull the circuit breaker and count to 10,and things are back to normal.


This one is from A320 MEL;




¦ 34 NAVIGATION ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦


¦ 22-03 Integrated Standby ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦
¦ Instrument System ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦

¦ 1) Horizon B ¦ 1 ¦ 0 ¦ May be inoperative provided: ¦
¦ (Attitude) ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Operations are conducted in ¦
¦ Function ¦ ¦ ¦ Day VMC only, and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Operations are not conducted ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ into known or forecast | ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ over-the-top conditions.
| ¦



And just to remind you that the MEL used before flight,MEL doesn't involve for the failures occured during the flight.As we don't have a valid information about the stby hrzn. is inop before the flight we can not be sure if that was a MEL item or not.

[Edited 2006-07-20 00:09:27]
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doug_or
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
To me, it looks as if the horizon can easily be substituted by what the pilots see on their left and right MFDs.

the whole point of the stby a/i is that the piltos will know up from down if the PFDs fail.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 14):
b) Operations are not conducted ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ into known or forecast | ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ over-the-top conditions. | ¦

It looks like an MEL, but what does it mean?
Is this shorthand for something?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:15 pm

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 15):
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
To me, it looks as if the horizon can easily be substituted by what the pilots see on their left and right MFDs.

the whole point of the stby a/i is that the piltos will know up from down if the PFDs fail.

Yes but there are multiple systems driving the MFDs. In order to have a problem, you would need both MFDs to fail (can the PFD info be routed to another MFD?) OR both horizon input systems to fail. There is quite a bit of redundancy already built in.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wing
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RE: What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 16):
It looks like an MEL, but what does it mean?
Is this shorthand for something?

No I just copy/pasted from the MEL from my computer but the it appeared like this on here.It should look like this.

¦ 1) Horizon B ¦ 1 ¦ 0 ¦May be inoperative provided:
¦ (Attitude) ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Operations are conducted in Day VMC only, and
Function ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Operations are not conducted into known or forecast over-the-top conditions
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