tonytifao
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Winglets Question

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:58 pm

How much do Winglets cost? And how much does it save on fuel percentage wise?

Thanks,
Tony
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:13 am

Typical savings are 2-6%. But it's important to remember that winglets are made for a certain speed range (cruise). So you will get a bigger advantage in long haul since those flights spend a larger proportion of their time at cruise speed. Actual savings depend a lot on how the plane is operated.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:18 am

The Longer the Cruise the Better effective is the purpose of Winglets served.Varies between 3-5% Fuel Savings,Depending on the Type.
Its a compromise between added weight & less drag.
regds
MEL
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mrocktor
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:26 am

Minor correction: winglets do only help in a specific flight regime, it does not have to be cruise though. You can design a winglet to help with climb (it will hurt cruise).

mrocktor
 
PPVRA
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 3):
Minor correction: winglets do only help in a specific flight regime, it does not have to be cruise though. You can design a winglet to help with climb (it will hurt cruise).

Random thought- does that by any chance explain Airbuse's and Boeing's different winglet design approach? If not, how would a winglet designed for climbing look different (if at all)?

Thanks,
PPVRA
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Starlionblue
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 3):
Minor correction: winglets do only help in a specific flight regime, it does not have to be cruise though. You can design a winglet to help with climb (it will hurt cruise).

Random thought- does that by any chance explain Airbuse's and Boeing's different winglet design approach? If not, how would a winglet designed for climbing look different (if at all)?

I think one of the reasons the Airbus gates look different from winglets is because there is enougn hfor ground clearance. As i understand it, the lower part is actually beneficial in most cases, but can give ground clearance problems on some planes. The 737 wing is much closer to the ground than the 32x wing, so....

Cue the winglet experts to correct and guide me. Where's Aeroweanie when you need him?  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 3):
You can design a winglet to help with climb (it will hurt cruise).

Cruising time is longer & makes senses to Reduce Drag during that Phase.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Random thought- does that by any chance explain Airbuse's and Boeing's different winglet design approach? If not, how would a winglet designed for climbing look different (if at all)?

No - the winglets on the production A300, A310 and A320 are small, as they provide a benefit (1%), but don't increase wing bending moments. This is important, as they were added to already in production aircraft and Airbus didn't want to get involved in beefing up structure.

On the A330 and A340, the winglets were designed into the aircraft from day one, so they are bigger and provide more benefit. The same holds for the 747-400.

The new A320 winglets are bigger and will require structural beef-up to handle the increased bending moments. Such beef-up was done on the 737NG, 737 Classic and 757 to allow use fo the APB winglets.

The really interesting difference is how the large winglets Airbus designed for the A330, A340 and A320 show no signs of blending. This means that they don't fully understand how to design highly efficient winglets. The Winglet Systems winglet flown on the A320 is blended and should outperform the Airbus winglets.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
Cruising time is longer & makes senses to Reduce Drag during that Phase.

For widebodies, yes. For narrowbodies, probably. For regional jets, it's highly debatable...

It really depends a lot on how your plane is operated. A heavy lift aircraft with strict takeoff field and initial climb requirements (such as military transports) may very well benefit from a winglet designed to improve performances at very high lift coeficients!

mrocktor
 
57AZ
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Thread starter):
How much do Winglets cost?

Depends on the airframe and manufacturer. For the C414 I think the cost minus installation is something like $60k. Add installation costs (mostly labor) and you're looking at around $100k. Our 414 has the Riley winglets and engine instruments but not the liquid cooled motors. Wish it did have the motors but that would be something like $200-250k and probably four weeks downtime.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:57 am

There's AeroWeanie!

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
The really interesting difference is how the large winglets Airbus designed for the A330, A340 and A320 show no signs of blending. This means that they don't fully understand how to design highly efficient winglets. The Winglet Systems winglet flown on the A320 is blended and should outperform the Airbus winglets.

Could it be that there are production/maintenance benefits to a non blended winglet?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
There's AeroWeanie!

I figured I'd wait and let the conversation get rolling before I jumped in.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Could it be that there are production/maintenance benefits to a non blended winglet?

Not that I know of.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):

Ahhhh, thanks!  Smile

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
The really interesting difference is how the large winglets Airbus designed for the A330, A340 and A320 show no signs of blending. This means that they don't fully understand how to design highly efficient winglets. The Winglet Systems winglet flown on the A320 is blended and should outperform the Airbus winglets.

Could it be that when these aircrafts were designed the technology was just not available yet? I believe the 747's winglets don't blend either, and the 777 has a different animal at its wingtips. AFAIK, the 737NG were the first to use blended-winglets, and those were introduced a full decade or so after the A320s. As for the A340, it was still several years before the B737NG. And A330s, introduced around the same time of the 737NG, use basically the same wing as the A340, correct? Now the A380. . . don't ask, but probably to keep its wingspan within airport gate limits.

Could help explain why Airbus planes tend to be a little less fuel efficient than Boeing aircraft (apart from the 4-engined A340).

Cheers
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Starlionblue
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RE: Winglets Question

Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
the 777 has a different animal at its wingtips.

Raked wingtips. They are different from winglets, but essentially the purpose is the same. IIRC there are some structural advantages. AeroWeanie can explain it better.

The 773ER/772LR and the 764 can have raked wingtips since there is little gate space consideration. Those gates are typically widebody gates that can accept 747/380 class aircraft anyway. The 737 and the 380 cannot have raked wingtips since they are span restricted by gate space. The 737 has to fit into traditional narrowbody gates and the 380 has to fit in the mandated 80x80 meter box.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Could help explain why Airbus planes tend to be a little less fuel efficient than Boeing aircraft (apart from the 4-engined A340).

This a bit of a myth. If Airbi were consistently significantly less fuel efficient on most routes they would probably not sell very well.

On the narrowbodies, you can discuss until you're blue in the face. It will still depend on the route.

AFAIK, the 777 tends to be more fuel efficient than the 330 or 340 (yes), but even then routing and other considerations have a big impact. On some routes, one aircraft wins. On some, another aircraft.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
MX757
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RE: Winglets Question

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:06 am

The benefits of winglets here at CO has been great! We average 4 to 5 percent better fuel economy on our 757-200s and 737NGs. That equates to 300K gallons per year per aircraft on the 757 and 110K per aircraft per year on the 737NG.

These savings basically pay for the cost of installing winglets on these aircraft well within the first year.
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N231YE
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RE: Winglets Question

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Thread starter):
How much do Winglets cost?

I believe the blended winglet retrofits for the 737/757 from Aviation Partners Boeing is in the range of $500,000-$700,000 per set (2 per airplane, obviously).

I guess WN, CO, and now AA have figured out that in the long run, the savings would far cover the installation costs, especially when JET-A prices keep rising.
 
57AZ
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RE: Winglets Question

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 15):
I believe the blended winglet retrofits for the 737/757 from Aviation Partners Boeing is in the range of $500,000-$700,000 per set (2 per airplane, obviously).

Believe it or not, I've seen reports of a Gulfstream that was flight operated on a ferry flight with only one winglet. It was based in France at the time that it suffered an accident and Grumman sent a team over to remove the damaged winglet (hangar door blew off in high winds and smashed the port winglet). It was ferried back to Savannah, Georgia for repairs with a temporary wingtip installed. Odd but true-kind of like Pan Am's three engined Connie.
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zeke
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RE: Winglets Question

Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
No - the winglets on the production A300, A310 and A320 are small, as they provide a benefit (1%), but don't increase wing bending moments. This is important, as they were added to already in production aircraft and Airbus didn't want to get involved in beefing up structure.

A300/310/320 series have wing fences, not winglets.

One the 320 the loss of the bottom portion alone will cost about 1-2% in fuel burn, total loss of one side about 4%, this comes from the 320 MEL/CDL ATA 57.

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
On the A330 and A340, the winglets were designed into the aircraft from day one, so they are bigger and provide more benefit. The same holds for the 747-400.

This is again incorrect with respect to the 340, from, the CDL one may be missing provided hole is covered. Increase fuel consumption by 1%, reduce the take-off and approach climb limiting weight by 2%. The maximum take-off weight must not be higher than 245 tonnes.

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
The really interesting difference is how the large winglets Airbus designed for the A330, A340 and A320 show no signs of blending. This means that they don't fully understand how to design highly efficient winglets. The Winglet Systems winglet flown on the A320 is blended and should outperform the Airbus winglets.

The fence on the 320 was installed at a time when fuel was not at the price it was today and with powerplants that were not available today. The new winglets on the 320 are also a surge tank, the old surge tank is now an additional fuel tank. Along with the other aerodynamic package modifications, better engines, the new winglets reduce drag by about 5%, have a higher optimum altitude, cruise speed, with the lower fuel burns and more fuel capacity give the 320 series, including the 319CJ longer range.

Dont be surprised that you see 777s in the future with winglets, they were designed 10-15 years ago now, when the design tradeoffs were done the cost of fuel was low, now with high fuel prices the additional drag reduction that they would get could justify their installation.

Airbus uses the the fences and winglets is to modify the lift distribution of the swept wing and to reduce the associated spanwise flow. Winglets not only reduce induced drag, they have the benefit of increasing the optimum altitude and climb gradients and takeoff performance. Cruise drag reduction alone as you can see from the 340 CDL is not at you stated.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Winglets Question

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 16):
Believe it or not, I've seen reports of a Gulfstream that was flight operated on a ferry flight with only one winglet.

This happens frequently on most wingleted planes. You can find pics of 32x and 744 with only one winglet in the database. And operating with one winglet can be done on revenue flights. Fuel burn will be higher.
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2H4
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RE: Winglets Question

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:04 am




Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
One the 320 the loss of the bottom portion alone will cost about 1-2% in fuel burn, total loss of one side about 4%

But I don't think that necessarily means the winglets provide a fuel savings of those exact same numbers. If a winglet is missing, fuel flow will obviously increase as a direct result of the increased induced drag, but will it not also increase very slightly as a result of the trim required to compensate for the asymmetric drag?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
On the A330 and A340, the winglets were designed into the aircraft from day one, so they are bigger and provide more benefit. The same holds for the 747-400.

This is again incorrect with respect to the 340

How is that incorrect? I think AeroWeanie simply stated that winglets were designed into the aircraft from day one.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Dont be surprised that you see 777s in the future with winglets

The 777 already has span extensions in the form of raked wingtips. More effective than wing fences....not sure how their performance compares to modern, non-planar winglets.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Airbus uses the the fences and winglets is to modify the lift distribution of the swept wing and to reduce the associated spanwise flow.

Yes, but as previously mentioned, the reason Airbus uses fences in particular, as opposed to winglets like on the 330 and 340 has to do with wing bending moments. The wing fences do not require the wings to be strengthened to the degree that winglets would.




2H4


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zeke
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RE: Winglets Question

Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
But I don't think that necessarily means the winglets provide a fuel savings of those exact same numbers. If a winglet is missing, fuel flow will obviously increase as a direct result of the increased induced drag, but will it not also increase very slightly as a result of the trim required to compensate for the asymmetric drag?

Cannot make that assumption, I know of no aircraft that is true after it leaves the factory.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
How is that incorrect? I think AeroWeanie simply stated that winglets were designed into the aircraft from day one.

Were they, as far as I know its a standard mod that is included in all 330/340s. Winglets are not installed on 744Ds.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
The 777 already has span extensions in the form of raked wingtips. More effective than wing fences....not sure how their performance compares to modern, non-planar winglets.

AFAIK only on 773ER/772LR, not the standard 772/772ER/773.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
Yes, but as previously mentioned, the reason Airbus uses fences in particular, as opposed to winglets like on the 330 and 340 has to do with wing bending moments. The wing fences do not require the wings to be strengthened to the degree that winglets would.

This is incorrect on the 320/306, e.g. on the 320 the wing was beefed up as an additional fuel tank was part of the mod, along with an increased takeoff mass.
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aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets Question

Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
A300/310/320 series have wing fences, not winglets.

You can call them whatever you want, but in the industry, they are called winglets. Jupp and Rees patent of the A300/310/320 winglets (US 4,714,215) is entitled "Aircraft Wing and Winglet Arrangment".


Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
This is again incorrect with respect to the 340, from, the CDL one may be missing provided hole is covered.

Regarding your reply to me, the A340 has winglets standard, so its you that is wrong. The 747-400 was designed with winglets, but they weren't installed when the 747-400 Domestic was configured. Regarding the second half of your sentence, all wingletted aircraft are certified to be flown with one missing, but this is a non-standard configuration.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:21 am

Hey guys,

Could any of you guys help me out in a question I raised in the following thread (reply 12):
GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived? (by RobK Jul 30 2006 in Civil Aviation)

In short, why would an airline install winglets on a Short Field Performance aircraft if the aircraft is to fly from a short runway, in a geographically hot location, to an airport less than an hour away?

Do the 737s winglets help climb in anyway?

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
2H4
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:49 am




Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Do the 737s winglets help climb in anyway?

Indeed they do!

...From http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/:


By allowing a steeper climb, winglets pay off in better takeoff performance, especially from obstacle-limited, high, hot, weight-limited, and/or noise-restricted airports.

Performance Improved climb gradients increase 737-800 allowable takeoff weight (TOW).Some examples include:

  • Chicago-Midway: ~1,600 lb additional TOW
  • Lanzarote (Canary Islands): ~3,500 lb additional TOW
  • Albuquerque, Denver, and Salt Lake City: ~4,400 lb additional TOW



In addition, Aviation Partners claims stalls are more easily recognized and controlled on an aircraft equipped with their winglets.




2H4


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aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Do the 737s winglets help climb in anyway?

Definitely! Beyond what 2H4 referenced, you should note that the QuietWing hushkit for the 727 has three components:

1) Inlet and tailpipe modifications
2) Winglets
3) Flap droop

The inlet and tailpipe modifications reduce engine radiated noise. The winglets enable the aircraft to climb faster and be higher when it goes over the microphones. The flap droop moves the wing load distribution inboard (the winglets move it outboard), reducing bending moments and the droop reduces wave drag in cruise.
 
2H4
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:28 am




Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 24):
The flap droop moves the wing load distribution inboard (the winglets move it outboard), reducing bending moments and the droop reduces wave drag in cruise.

Very interesting. Does the flap droop include both the leading-edge and trailing-edge flaps? Any idea how many degrees either/each is deployed? Is the amount of flap droop consistent throughout takeoff, climb, cruise, approach, and landing phases?

Thanks for the info.  Smile




2H4


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PPVRA
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:25 am

Thanks guys, that explains it.

Also- would the winglets allow for a steeper approach as well?

Cheers.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets Question

Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 25):
Very interesting. Does the flap droop include both the leading-edge and trailing-edge flaps? Any idea how many degrees either/each is deployed? Is the amount of flap droop consistent throughout takeoff, climb, cruise, approach, and landing phases?

According to US patent 6,161,797, the aft element of the inboard flaps is drooped 7 deg and the aft element of the outboard flaps is drooped 3.5 deg. The inboard, high-speed aileron is drooped 2 deg and the outboard, low-speed aileron is drooped 1 deg. I believe the droop of the flaps dissapears at detents other than Flaps 0. Additionally, the slat scheduling appears to be modified, so that the slats are out 30 deg at Flaps 5.

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