SpinalTap
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Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:19 pm

I am doing research on refrigerants at the moment and would like to import a high purity refrigerant (R-32, difluoromethane) from Florida to New Zealand. The refrigerant is stored as a pressurised liquid in a small cylinder - I want to import a total of 400 g of the refrigerant. I have contacted a few freight companies and they all say they don't air freight "dangerous goods". My question is do aircraft regularly take shipments of refrigerants or other dangerous goods? Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley? Do any planes have air conditioning?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
My question is do aircraft regularly take shipments of refrigerants or other dangerous goods?

My guess is you will need a specialty freight carrier. But I'm sure you'll get good answers.

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Do any planes have air conditioning?

All airliners have air conditioning. The fuse is well insulated and planes get very hot on the ground.

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley?

Yes.
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bri2k1
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Do any planes have air conditioning?

All airliners have air conditioning.

Yes, but not all air conditioners are created equally. You have never heard of someone topping up the refrigerant on an airliner because it doesn't have any.

An air cycle machine provides cool air without refrigerant. Very hot air from the engine bleeds passes through a heat exchanger. A heat exchanger is like a car's radiator, but instead of coolant flowing through, it's just the hot air. That bleeds off some of the heat so the rest of the cycle is more efficient. It's then compressed, which heats it up again, so then it passes through another heat exchanger. Next, it passes through a turbine. The energy left in the air (in the form of heat) is used to drive the turbine (converting it to kinetic energy) and as a result the air becomes very cool.

A couple interesting points: this is very similar to the refrigeration cycle used in "normal" air conditioners, except the first step is moved to the last. In refrigeration, the last expansion happens at the entrance to another heat exchanger, and then warm air flows through the heat exchanger, transfering heat to the refrigerant. This first heat exchange happens at the beginning of an air cycle, bleeding off heat from the air at the beginning. That's because in an air cycle machine, the same air that does the work on the system is then vented into the cabin; there's no secondary exchange from the working fluid to the air being cooled. Also, the turbine and compressor can be connected by a shaft, so the only input required to the system is a high volume of hot air. That way, the APU or the engines can provide the necessary input.

Piston-driven airplanes usually use regular refrigerated air conditioning systems since they don't have a good source of hot air (if the pilots can stop bragging about themselves, that is Smile). But any modern airplane with a jet engine, including turboprops, uses air cycle machines for air conditioning.
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Tod
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley?

Many galleys have "chillers" that provide cooling air for the beverage carts.
Cold air comes out one place and warm air comes out another. The warm air is exhausted either above the galley or below the floor. I don't recall if these chillers use a chemical refrigerant.

Tod
 
bri2k1
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:49 am

I don't know either, but my guess is no. The beverages are never that cold; that's why they're served with ice. In the old days when food was served, I think it was packed with ice, too. They take on fresh ice at every turn instead of making it enroute. The added weight, maintenance, and potential safety issues with refrigeration cycles are probably not worth carrying them on board.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 4):
The beverages are never that cold; that's why they're served with ice. In the old days when food was served, I think it was packed with ice, too.

The red wine is always freezing, even on hot days. Surely they don't put that on ice? Then again, cooling something on a plane is theoretically pretty simple. Just put a cooler next to an uninsulated section of fuselage  Wink
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n8076u
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:38 am

My guess is that you'll have to ship that stuff via cargo ship. Airlines do ship "some" dangerous goods, but I doubt you'll be able to ship cans of pressurized refrigerant.

Most if not all goods that need to be kept refrigerated or frozen during shipping in an aircraft use dry ice to do so, and FYI, the dry ice itself is considered dangerous goods. There is a weight limit, per cargo hold, of how much dry ice can be put in there. There are "cold box" aircraft cargo containers, but they are just insulated, and do not have any built-in refrigeration system in any way.

Quoting Tod (Reply 3):
Many galleys have "chillers" that provide cooling air for the beverage carts.

Yes, some galleys have "chillers". They are little stand-alone refrigeration units, like an in-window air conditioner, only larger, and the ones on UAs 747-400s used R134A as the refrigerant (and if I remember right, there were 8 or 9 chillers on that aircraft). The cool air that the chillers make is routed through ducts, which lead to where the galley carts are stored under the galley counters. Two undercounter ports interface with each cart, one providing the cool air, and a second port removes the warmer air from the cart. Some galleys may also have the cold air ported to one of the galley compartments as well (which I suppose is like a refrigerator). But dry ice is also used in each cold cart as well, as the chillers' performance is less than stellar, and the carts need to be kept cold during their trip from the kitchen where the cart is filled, all the way to the aircraft which may take a while, as the catering trucks may be carrying more than one flight's worth of food on board.

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KELPkid
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 2):
Piston-driven airplanes usually use regular refrigerated air conditioning systems since they don't have a good source of hot air (if the pilots can stop bragging about themselves, that is Smile)

Should say "the few piston-driven airplanes that have air conditioning systems." I've never flown a light piston aircraft so equipped...some high-end models, like the A36 Bonanza, Piper Saratoga, etc. are available with this as an option, but as with everything in a light GA aircraft, such options quickly eat into the available load...so many operators just choose to go without. If you really need cool air, just get aloft and open the Pepsi Cans (Cessna) or other air ventilation system  Smile

As an aside, I've noticed that reliable heating is often much more of a concern than cooling things down. The only place onboard AC helps in a single is between the tiedowns and the runway on a hot summer day, and usually more so in low-winged aircraft with a large greenhouse area.
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KELPkid
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting N8076U (Reply 6):
Most if not all goods that need to be kept refrigerated or frozen during shipping in an aircraft use dry ice to do so, and FYI, the dry ice itself is considered dangerous goods.

What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?
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Tod
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?

Great question for a systems DER. How much dry ice would it take to exceed the limits of 14CFR25.831(2)?

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...ode=14:1.0.1.3.11.4.179.68&idno=14

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n8076u
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?

Good question. There are weight limits as far as the sum total of dry ice that can be in all of the galley carts. Whether that takes the sublimation into account or not, I don't know.

Chris
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bri2k1
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
The red wine is always freezing, even on hot days. Surely they don't put that on ice?

Why ever not? I frequently use the same technique (albeit not for red wine) in hotel rooms without refrigerators. The secret to avoiding watering down the beverage is to leave it in the bottle. Just put the whole bottle in the ice.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
Should say "the few piston-driven airplanes that have air conditioning systems."

Quite right, few do. I'm excited about the Cirrus though, it looks like it may soon become more commonplace than in the past.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
The red wine is always freezing, even on hot days. Surely they don't put that on ice?

Why ever not? I frequently use the same technique (albeit not for red wine) in hotel rooms without refrigerators. The secret to avoiding watering down the beverage is to leave it in the bottle. Just put the whole bottle in the ice.

Of course. But doesn't answer my question about why they would put red wine on ice, or chill it.
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Tod
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 11):
I frequently use the same technique (albeit not for red wine) in hotel rooms without refrigerators

Isn't this why some hotel rooms have two sinks?
Doesn't everyone dump a wastebasket full of ice into the extra sink, converting it into a beverage cooler?

Tod  Smile
 
SpinalTap
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:27 am

Thank you everyone for your replies

Quoting N8076U (Reply 6):
Yes, some galleys have "chillers". They are little stand-alone refrigeration units, like an in-window air conditioner, only larger, and the ones on UAs 747-400s used R134A as the refrigerant (and if I remember right, there were 8 or 9 chillers on that aircraft). The cool air that the chillers make is routed through ducts, which lead to where the galley carts are stored under the galley counters. Two undercounter ports interface with each cart, one providing the cool air, and a second port removes the warmer air from the cart. Some galleys may also have the cold air ported to one of the galley compartments as well (which I suppose is like a refrigerator). But dry ice is also used in each cold cart as well, as the chillers' performance is less than stellar, and the carts need to be kept cold during their trip from the kitchen where the cart is filled, all the way to the aircraft which may take a while, as the catering trucks may be carrying more than one flight's worth of food on board.

Interesting, R134a and dry ice are both non-flammable so I guess this is why they are used. R32 is actually flammable, that is probably part of the problem I suspect.
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KELPkid
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 14):
nteresting, R134a and dry ice are both non-flammable so I guess this is why they are used. R32 is actually flammable, that is probably part of the problem I suspect.

How much pressure differential can the storage cans take? In a rapid depressurization, the storage can could become a bomb...
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texfly101
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:43 am

It both being under pressure and flammable makes shipping by air very problematic and subject to very strenuous rules. Just saying no to such liabilities is the standard choice, both of the shipping companies and their insurers. A fire in an aircraft cargo hold usually makes for major headlines and video of the crash site.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 15):
Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 14):
nteresting, R134a and dry ice are both non-flammable so I guess this is why they are used. R32 is actually flammable, that is probably part of the problem I suspect.

How much pressure differential can the storage cans take? In a rapid depressurization, the storage can could become a bomb...

They've probably thought of that. If nothing else, the pressure difference between the inside of a pressure bottle and outside is probably way beyond the fluctuations from ground level to 40000 ft.

[Edited 2006-07-25 00:48:29]
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bri2k1
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
If nothing else, the pressure difference between the inside of a pressure bottle and outside is probably way beyond the fluctuations from ground level to 40000 ft.

I assume he's talking here about the bottles that were to be shipped. It's been several years since I've done the calculation, but the forces involved are surprisingly high. Either way, it's not just the pressure difference that's a problem, but the rate of change of pressure. That's much more difficult to set a limit on, and probably is the reason most companies won't ship them.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
But doesn't answer my question about why they would put red wine on ice, or chill it.

I asked them, and they do it just to piss you off. Is it working?
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Bobster2
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?

It can't be any worse than flushing dry ice down the toilet. 

Read Patrick Smith's story on that subject here:
http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/col/...002/10/03/askthepilot13/index.html

[Edited 2006-07-25 02:42:49]
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Starlionblue
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 18):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
But doesn't answer my question about why they would put red wine on ice, or chill it.

I asked them, and they do it just to piss you off. Is it working?

Works every time. Big grin
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PhilSquares
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:58 am

I don't have an IATA Dangerous Goods book, but going from memory, I believe you can ship the R32 in limited amounts. Flammable goods are shipped all the time via commercial aircraft, mostly freighters in limited quantities. The IATA DG book will give you all the shipping/packing requirements.

As far as refrigs on aircraft, I can only speak for the 744 and some versions had a chiller (customer option) that would keep the carts cool. There is a small chiller located in the galleys. On some freighters there is a "lower lobe" cooling system that allows perishable goods to be shipped at a specific temp for the entire flight. It's controllable/selectable from the cockpit.

Finally, most modern aircraft (transport) do have a "air cycle machine". It provides the cabin with pressurization and heated/cooled air for comfort.
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PanHAM
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:21 pm

Forget about everything that hs been said here about galleys and refrigerators on board of planes.

Cargo goes into the cargo hold and passengers usually sit above those.

Now, DIFLUORMETHANE is UN # 3252 , class 2.1 flamm gas and is not allowed in passenger aircraft. The only way to ship it is in cargo aircraft and if pacxked according to packoing note 200, you can ship up to 150 kgs.

If you are not familiar with these rules, you better don't ship it. Or ask the manufacturer for help. My DGR book is a bit old, the current ones are on the main office, so double check that informaiton. Regulations may differ in the USA as well.

And if you think it is easier shipping by sea, I got bad news for you. the regulations are as complicated, if not more and you have to deal with the local port authority and whoever they delegate to handle that.

And if you think you can just ship it in a container....
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PhilSquares
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Forget about everything that hs been said here about galleys and refrigerators on board of planes.

Really???? As far as the 744F goes, I suggest you do a little review!
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PanHAM
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 23):

Really???? As far as the 744F goes, I suggest you do a little review!

I don't have to do any review my friend, you should review your methoid handling DGR shipmens. You can ship temperture controlled consignments in cooltainers and it does not matter if you put these on a 744F or a MD11 or whatever as long as you have a standard size container.

What needs to be done in this case is to properly classify the dangerous good as to
UN#
packaging group
packaging note.

From what I have been reading here, it might even have to be packed in dry ice in addition to the packaging requirements for flammable gases.

All these rules may differ in the US from the rules we have in Europe, the airline has to be consulted and since this is cargo aircraft only to NZ there ain't much choice in the first place. And I would not give it to FX with my name on the awb, they have a bad record shipping DGRs.
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Tod
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 21):
the 744 and some versions had a chiller (customer option) that would keep the carts cool.

 checkmark 

Every 744 that I have work on has at least some chillers.
The usual locations are:
Aft upperdeck galley (either one chiller, one on on each side of galley)
Door 2 galley complex (often feeds a door 1 galley too)
Door 4 galley complex

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 21):
On some freighters there is a "lower lobe" cooling system that allows perishable goods to be shipped at a specific temp for the entire flight. It's controllable/selectable from the cockpit.

This cooling system is part of the aircraft conditioned air system and fed by the packs.

Tod
 
XXXX10
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:02 am

I have often wondered how the ice for the drinks, or ice cream, is stored aboard an aircraft, I assumed that there were freezers in the galley.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 25):

Every 744 that I have work on has at least some chillers.
The usual locations are:
Aft upperdeck galley (either one chiller, one on on each side of galley)
Door 2 galley complex (often feeds a door 1 galley too)
Door 4 galley complex

Guys, we are talking about CARGO - even more DANGEROUS CARGO.

What has that do to with chillers in a galley? There is a galley in a freighter, on the upper deck for the crew and the eventual passenger. In case a CAO shipment is flown, there won't be any passengers, not even horse grooms, because the two (DGR and horses with grooms) would not be allowed on the same plane.

A DGR shipment has to be packed properly according to the rules and regulations and has to be stored in the proper storage position / container on the plane, In no way is that a chiller in the galley.

Next - some cargo holds are climatized, some are not. Perishables would be stored in a climate controlled hold, I had shipments of morsels going Y>VR/FRA, we have made trial runs, morsels generate their own heat and decay very fast, 3 out of 5 got here OK because the exact temp could not be held, it was a gamble back then. Now there are climate controlled ULD's where you can keep the exact temperature needed.

That does not apply in this case. Again, persihables are a different thing than DGR.
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PhilSquares
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
I don't have to do any review my friend, you should review your methoid handling DGR shipmens. You can ship temperture controlled consignments in cooltainers and it does not matter if you put these on a 744F or a MD11 or whatever as long as you have a standard size container.

First off, perhaps you should re-read my post, I stated I didn't have the IATA DG manual in front of me. However, if you would look, you'll find the 744F has an option of a lower lobe temp system. With that system you can keep the forward and aft lower cargo compartments at a very specific temp range +/- 2C. This system is used by SQ and marketed specifically for perishable, high value shipments such as drugs or other sensitive products.

However, if you follow the IATA DG guide you should be safe no matter where you ship the material from.
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ha763
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Now, DIFLUORMETHANE is UN # 3252 , class 2.1 flamm gas and is not allowed in passenger aircraft. The only way to ship it is in cargo aircraft and if pacxked according to packoing note 200, you can ship up to 150 kgs.

I do have the current 2006 IATA DG manual. The proper shipping name is also Refrigerant Gas R32. Same UN #, class/divison, same max quantities, and restrictions as difluormethane. There is a special provision, A1, which says that it can be shipped on pax aircraft if certain state provisions are followed.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
All these rules may differ in the US from the rules we have in Europe, the airline has to be consulted and since this is cargo aircraft only to NZ there ain't much choice in the first place.

Any and all state and operator variations are in the IATA DG manual.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 28):
nd aft lower cargo compartments at a very specific temp range +/- 2C. This system is used by SQ and marke

exactly, climatized +/- 2 degrees C - Refrigeration means something else and you won't find a cargo hold that keep -18 or lower, unless the door is blown out.



Quoting Ha763 (Reply 29):

I do have the current 2006 IATA DG manual. The proper shipping name is also Refrigerant Gas R32. Same UN #

good, I mentioned that the book which I have in this office is outdated.
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n8076u
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley? Do any planes have air conditioning?



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
What has that do to with chillers in a galley?

PanHAM, the original poster asked some questions, see above. Those questions were merely being answered. That is what it has to do with chillers in a galley.

Quoting Tod (Reply 25):
Every 744 that I have work on has at least some chillers.
The usual locations are:
Aft upperdeck galley (either one chiller, one on on each side of galley)
Door 2 galley complex (often feeds a door 1 galley too)
Door 4 galley complex

For comparison's sake, as far as pax aircraft are concerned, here's how the UA 744s are optioned, as far as chillers:

Upper deck, 2 total, one one each side.
First class "door 1" galley, one in ceiling.
Door 2 galley, 2 in ceiling.
Door 4 galley complex, 3 in ceiling.

Chris
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PanHAM
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting N8076U (Reply 31):

PanHAM, the original poster asked some questions, see above. Those questions were merely being answered. That is what it has to do with chillers in a g

Excuse me, but spinaltap asked about the import of a Refrigerant from the USA to NZ and he seemed to have to absurd idea that this can be done in the galley of an aircraft.

I do not blame him, he is obviously not an airfreight man, I am and we are trained in our business to check each and every shipment for a potentially mis declared DGR. Spinaltap is unaware that - what he intends to ship or receive, is a DGR which needs special handling and treatment and cannot be shipped just like a book or some car spares..

I think I have made my point, but obviously it is not understood by everyone here. What can happen, if the most basic rules in DGR handling are not observed, was just recently discussed on the anniversary of the Valuejet accident in MIA.


Had just one of the guys handling that flight a basic training in air freight and DGR, the oxygen generators would never have been loaded on that flight and the accident would not have happened.

Some of the answers in this thread really can be spine chilling.
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bri2k1
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:59 am

I agree, PanHAM, it is you who has missed the point. There is more than one idea in this thread.

What you say about shipping dangerous goods is absolutely correct and I sincerely hope the OP gets the hint and follows the regulations regarding shipping such goods. I was going to bring up the ValuJet incident but chose not to; it is a good example of why seemingly benign goods must not be shipped if they are not supposed to be.

However, the OP did ask more than one question, and N8076U even quoted them for you. We've clarified that jet airplanes don't use refrigerated air conditioning for the cabin. A few larger planes may have galley chillers, but they use R134a to the best of any poster's knowledge.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Forget about everything that hs been said here

Now, was that really necessary?
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:26 am

Spinaltap,

The best thing you can do is to go to a company which is specialized in classifying, packing, labelling etc dangerous goods. For example in Holland we have SCS. You can find them on;
http://www.dgsa.nl/english/home.htm
As you will see there they will do everything for you. I'm sure they will have a company in New Zealand like this too. Maybe SGS? They can advice you everything on how and what.

As far as airfreight company not shipping dangerous goods, I don't know any airfreight company in Holland that doesn't ship any dangerous goods. Sometimes you just can not avoid it and they use companies like these too to classify, pack, label etc the cargo.

Maybe these companies can bring you in contact too with a airfreight agent who wants to accept it from you.....

But remember, it's always the shippers/agent responsibility that all the rules of the IATA DGR are complied with. The responsibility of the airline is only handling and acceptance of the goods.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 33):
I agree, PanHAM, it is you who has missed the point. There is more than one idea in this thread.

Sorry, but I have read the question again, indeed, it is more than on question but they are all located around the shipping of a dangerous good from A to B. He is not asking about the shipment of the gas and then, separately if planes have chillers in the galley. Could it be that some others have missed that point? As I have said, I ffound some o the answers spine chilling.


What SIAC says is fact for Germany, for Switzerland and many other countries in the World. We have trained professionals and it is mandatory for an IATA airfreoight agent to employ people with current DGR certificates. There are packaging firms as well, who handle this professionally.



Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 33):

Now, was that really necessary?

for the sake of safety, yes.
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bri2k1
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
I ffound some o the answers spine chilling.

Likewise.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
He is not asking about the shipment of the gas and then, separately if planes have chillers in the galley.

I'm sure you already know this, but it's the same question. If it's safe to have R-32 on board for use in chillers, why wouldn't it be safe to ship it in limited quantities? As it turns out, it is NOT used on board, because it is NOT safe to ship, thus driving further home the point. And without having to blindly accept what one person says, disregarding everyone else's contributions.
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n8076u
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
I am doing research on refrigerants at the moment



Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
My question is do aircraft regularly take shipments of refrigerants or other dangerous goods? Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley? Do any planes have air conditioning?

To me, it sounds like Spinaltap is someone who is doing research about refrigerants/refrigeration, and asked about the possibility of shipping the stuff he needs via airfreight.

Then, because he is doing that particular type of reasearch and is an A.nutter and therefore into airplanes, asked about refrigerators on airplanes and if aircraft have air conditioners simply because he is curious what aircraft have as far as cooling equipment, and maybe even to see if any of that may relate in some way to his research. I doubt his intention was to ship his stuff in the galley, in a cold box "on ice" next to Starlionblue's red vino.  Wink

Chris
Don't blame me, I don't work here...
 
texfly101
Posts: 343
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):
What can happen, if the most basic rules in DGR handling are not observed, was just recently discussed on the anniversary of the Valuejet accident in MIA.

As I stated in my post, stuff like this is covered by shipping rules and as PanHam's post correctly states, when the rules aren't followed, news happens. Not trying to trivialize anything, but the rules are very complex and are in place for a reason, so I don't try to be specific. Hell, its hard enough to talk about this among ourselves who work in hazardous materials and shipping, much less try to be specific here. But there is a whole body of rules and regulations that we have to abide by. They are so complex and at times, seemingly unreasonable. Sometimes they even seem ridiculous....look at your watch...its got a lithium battery in it...dangerous? flammable? any probelms with shipping it? Well, I'll let the others out here figure out why I list lithium batteries in this thread.
 
n8076u
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Texfly101 (Reply 38):
Well, I'll let the others out here figure out why I list lithium batteries in this thread.

A UPS DC-8 on fire at PHL comes to mind.


Chris
Don't blame me, I don't work here...
 
bri2k1
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:08 pm

I agree. I stated that, too. I also think we shouldn't ignore the topic of the thread:

Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft
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L-188
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:43 pm

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 29):
I do have the current 2006 IATA DG manual. The proper shipping name is also Refrigerant Gas R32. Same UN #, class/divison, same max quantities, and restrictions as difluormethane. There is a special provision, A1, which says that it can be shipped on pax aircraft if certain state provisions are followed.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
All these rules may differ in the US from the rules we have in Europe, the airline has to be consulted and since this is cargo aircraft only to NZ there ain't much choice in the first place.

Any and all state and operator variations are in the IATA DG manual.

That's the book you want to go by. What you should do is check with the various cargo operations between the two countries.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:03 am

Aircraft carry Dangerouys goods but some are listed as CAO which is CArgo AIrcraft only. That is usually highly flammable or corrosives. Any thing can be shipped by air if it is packed safely and properly.
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