BA787
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Nosewheel Controls

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:55 pm

Can someone provide a list of the a/c that have nosewheels that are controlled by the tiller and a list of a/c that do the same job with the rudder pedals.

I know the ATR series uses the tiller. Commercial aircraft only please. Also, in your opinion, which works best?

Cheers, Tom
 
bri2k1
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:21 pm

Most of them use both. The pedals only steer the nosewheel a little in either direction but since they also move the rudder itself they're used for high-speed directional control. At low speeds, and for tighter manuevering, the tiller is used.

I think it was SlamClick who relayed information a short while back about the before-takeoff check in a DC-10. A good captain could perform the full rudder deflection test while taxiing, moving the tiller exactly opposite the rudder pedals, and if he (or she) did it right, the nosewheel wouldn't even move at all.
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EMBQA
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
Can someone provide a list of the a/c that have nosewheels that are controlled by the tiller and a list of a/c that do the same job with the rudder pedals.

Every commercial aircraft I can think of has a tiller.

All Boeing's...
All Airbus...
All CRJ's...
All Embraer...
All ATR's...

On commercial aircraft most steering is not connected to the rudder peddles, rather the steering is done with the rudder during take off and landing above certain speeds. In fact the aircraft I have worked with the tiller steering dis-arms after passing that speed and steering can only be done with the rudder.

[Edited 2006-07-24 14:38:25]
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BA787
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
On commercial aircraft most steering is not connected to the rudder peddles, rather the steering is done with the rudder during take off and landing above certain speeds. In fact the aircraft I have worked with the tiller steering dis-arms after passing that speed and steering can only be done with the rudder.

Thats great, all I was looking for, same to Bri2k1 as well

Tom
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:28 am

Note that some of the smaller airliners only have a tiller on the left side. This is the case for the MD-80. So if the F/O is flying that segment, the pilot will steer up to 80 knots and call "80 knots", at which point the rudder has authority. The procedure is reversed for landing. Obviously the Captain has to taxi.

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
Also, in your opinion, which works best?

It's about using different methods for different phases. During taxi, when speeds are low and you often need big deflections, the tiller is used. During take-off, you only need small deflections (except on those pesky curved runways  Wink ) and you need both hands for yoke/stick and throttles.
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bri2k1
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
(except on those pesky curved runways Wink )

I've often thought about that, actually. If I had an engine failure on a single, and there was a perfect, vacant, but curved section of highway straight ahead, would my technique and piloting skills allow me to survive a curved landing in a tricycle-gear equipped airplane?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 5):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
(except on those pesky curved runways Wink )

I've often thought about that, actually. If I had an engine failure on a single, and there was a perfect, vacant, but curved section of highway straight ahead, would my technique and piloting skills allow me to survive a curved landing in a tricycle-gear equipped airplane?

I'm inclined to say "Sure!"

There were quite a few curved runways in Laos during the Vietname War. These were used for gun runnning by the CIA (you remember the movie "Air America" right?). Some even had the turn at the half-way point in the runway. To make matters more fun, some of these runways were on hillsides. So landing could involve touchdown while ascending, and take-off could involve a 30 degree turn.

Of course, you didn't land 737s there  Wink
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:56 am

In the CRJ, you have 7 degrees left and right of steering with the rudder pedals, and 70 degrees left and right with the tiller.

I will typically let the FO turn off the highspeed into the parrallel given they are fairly shallow turns.

Our rudder check is done in the after start check before the nose wheel steering is armed, but you can certainly do it the way SlamClick described. If you do it right and equalize the deflection with the tiller, you can't tell that it's being done at all.
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320tech
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:16 am

Every commercial aircraft I can think of has a tiller.

All Boeing's...
All Airbus...
All CRJ's...
All Embraer...
All ATR's...


Dash-8 too.

In the CRJ, you have 7 degrees left and right of steering with the rudder pedals, and 70 degrees left and right with the tiller.

Pretty sure both the Dash-8 and A320 have this set up too. The max angle is greater for both, though.
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Jetlagged
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
On commercial aircraft most steering is not connected to the rudder peddles, rather the steering is done with the rudder during take off and landing above certain speeds.

No, on most airliners the nosewheel is connected to both the tiller and the pedals (not peddles). Pedals have much less nosewheel steering authority, but enough to keep straight on the runway at low speeds. This enables the F/O, often without a tiller control, to perform a takeoff.

Although pilots transfer control from the nosewheel to the rudder as speed increases, there is usually no cutoff speed beyond which the nosewheel stops moving. Rather it becomes less effective, as the rudder becomes more effective. Maybe the Embraers are different?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
This is the case for the MD-80. So if the F/O is flying that segment, the pilot will steer up to 80 knots and call "80 knots", at which point the rudder has authority. The procedure is reversed for landing. Obviously the Captain has to taxi.

I thought the MD-80 had pedal steering? In which case the F/O would not need the Captain to steer for him/her. Most airliners have a speed call at or around 80 knots, regardless of tiller control configurations.

The F.28 is one airliner which does not have pedal steering.

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 1):
A good captain could perform the full rudder deflection test while taxiing, moving the tiller exactly opposite the rudder pedals, and if he (or she) did it right, the nosewheel wouldn't even move at all.

I'm don't know about the DC-10, but on the 747 all that is necessary is to hold the tiller in the central position. Then you can push the rudder and the nosewheel will not steer. The pedal steering inter-connection moves the tiller, which moves the nosewheel. There is a lost motion device in the inter-connect mechanism so if the tiller is held it overrides the pedal position input.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 9):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
This is the case for the MD-80. So if the F/O is flying that segment, the pilot will steer up to 80 knots and call "80 knots", at which point the rudder has authority. The procedure is reversed for landing. Obviously the Captain has to taxi.

I thought the MD-80 had pedal steering? In which case the F/O would not need the Captain to steer for him/her. Most airliners have a speed call at or around 80 knots, regardless of tiller control configurations.

I was in the cockpit and observed it myself. It may well be that since some take-offs are rolling and some landings turn off at high speeds the 80 knot call is a more practical handover moment. Don't know.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 9):
I'm don't know about the DC-10, but on the 747 all that is necessary is to hold the tiller in the central position. Then you can push the rudder and the nosewheel will not steer.

That's what he's referring to, on the DC-10 and MD-11 the flight control check is done during taxi and to offset any turn by pushing on the rudder you just add a little pressure on the tiller in the opposite direction to continue straight. It's a technique that keeps any side motion from bothering anyone. Of course boxes don't complain.
 
bri2k1
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:38 pm

Actually, I learned something new here. When I taxiied big jets (in the sim) I pretty much only used the tiller. I always thought SlamClick meant you had to deflect the tiller the appropriate amount opposite the deflection of the rudder pedals to keep it straight. From your replies, it seems like you actually just apply pressure to keep the tiller centered, and the rudder pedals then have no effect on the nosewheel. Interesting! It actually makes more sense that way in terms of systems than the other way; conflicting inputs on an airplane shouldn't cancel each other out. That's why I only fly with weak people in the second seat  Silly
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 12):
conflicting inputs on an airplane shouldn't cancel each other out.

Don't the sticks in the FBW Airbi cancel each other out? And I read something about the Egyptair 767. If the control columns are pulling in opposite directions the right elevator will go one way and the left another.

But I could be wrong.
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DH106
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
Don't the sticks in the FBW Airbi cancel each other out?

Yes - but I think the Captain has an override button?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
And I read something about the Egyptair 767. If the control columns are pulling in opposite directions the right elevator will go one way and the left another.

Yes - I believe this is true for most (non-FBW) airliners, for the elevators and ailerons. It's a precaution against one control column/wheel getting 'stuck'. Heave hard enough and the two surfaces 'split' allowing some reduced control.
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Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting DH106 (Reply 14):
Yes - but I think the Captain has an override button?

i believe both the captain and FO have an override button
 
EMBQA
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 9):
No, on most airliners the nosewheel is connected to both the tiller and the pedals

Really..? Not one of the commercial aircraft I have actually worked on does this.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:45 am

Excuse my ignorance but what is a Tiller ?

Rgds --James--
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Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
Really..? Not one of the commercial aircraft I have actually worked on does this.

what aircraft have you woirked on?
 
Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 17):
Excuse my ignorance but what is a Tiller ?

little steering wheel type device on the flight deck wall


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe Corrigan



you can see it here just to the left of the captains control coloumn

[Edited 2006-07-26 23:49:50]
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 19):

little steering wheel type device on the flight deck wall

That silly lil handle can turn the aircraft!! that must take some getting used to given its postion!

Rgds --James--
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Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 20):
That silly lil handle can turn the aircraft!!

thats one way of putting it i guess lol
 
bri2k1
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 20):
That silly lil handle can turn the aircraft!! that must take some getting used to given its postion!

It's actually quite simple to use. It's a very solid-feeling control and that makes it easy to be precise. I base this on only having taxiied planes with tillers in a simulator, but they were full-motion level D sims.
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AJ
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:15 am

On our 767, 747 and A330 fleets there is a tiller on both sides. Our company SOPs allow the FO to taxi from after engine start until aligned with the parking bay.

My tiller is located below my notepad in this photo:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Anthony Jackson



The tiller on the 767 can turn the nosewheel up to 65 degrees whereas the rudder pedals only allow 7 degrees of travel. The tiller is used for turns and the rudder pedals used to keep the aircraft straight during long taxis and the takeoff roll.

As the tiller will rapidly return to neutral it must be held throughout turns with positive pressure, releasing it has caused embarrasment and even injured flight attendants.

During the preflight rudder check the tiller is held in neutral to prevent the nose gear from turning, especially with the towbar attached!

[Edited 2006-07-27 03:18:58]

[Edited 2006-07-27 03:20:05]
 
Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting AJ (Reply 23):
During the preflight rudder check the tiller is held in neutral to prevent the nose gear from turning, especially with the towbar attached!

if the tow bar is still attached then the steering bypass pin should be installed.....so using the rudder pedal wouldnt have any effect on the nosewheel anyway would it?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting AJ (Reply 23):
As the tiller will rapidly return to neutral it must be held throughout turns with positive pressure, releasing it has caused embarrasment and even injured flight attendants.

How hard and fast does it come back. Spring loaded like. (<- using HAWK21M question structure standard sans "?"  Wink )

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 24):
Quoting AJ (Reply 23):
During the preflight rudder check the tiller is held in neutral to prevent the nose gear from turning, especially with the towbar attached!

if the tow bar is still attached then the steering bypass pin should be installed.....so using the rudder pedal wouldnt have any effect on the nosewheel anyway would it?

Always assume everyone else is making mistakes  Wink
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Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
Always assume everyone else is making mistakes

well i reckon they'd be having a pretty tough time down there if the bypass pin wasnt fitted!  Wink
 
n8076u
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
How hard and fast does it come back. Spring loaded like.

It comes back to centered very quickly, as it is very "spring loaded like".  Wink Wait, were you asking a question.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 24):
if the tow bar is still attached then the steering bypass pin should be installed.....so using the rudder pedal wouldnt have any effect on the nosewheel anyway would it?

Well, the pin "should" be installed but you shouldn't count on it, as someone could have forgotten, or someone needing that pin could have come by and borrowed it without saying anything. (Some aircraft don't even have any bypass mechanism, like the 737-200 and older DC-8s.) If the pin is installed correctly, the nose gear will not move, using the rudder pedals or the tiller, as the pin physically prevents any hydraulic pressure from being ported to the steering cylinders.

Some aircraft may use an electric switch that the pin holds in place, like the A320, and the bypass itself occurs elsewhere through electrical means. Other aircraft have a hydraulic bypass valve that the pin holds down (you move the valve and insert the pin, which holds it in the bypass position), which ports the steering cylinders to eachother, and the hydraulic pressure right back to the return, bypassing the steering cylinders altogether. The 737s other than the 100/200, 757, 767 and 777 have this setup, for instance. The 747 bypass pin actually locks the steering plate in a neutral position, rather than using a seperate valve. You only need to insert the pin.

Almost as bad as not putting in the pin before pushback is leaving the pin after pushback and release. Some pilots have little humor for errors like that.

Chris
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Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting N8076U (Reply 27):
The 747 bypass pin actually locks the steering plate in a neutral position, rather than using a seperate valve. You only need to insert the pin

is that why the tiller moves when going round corners during tows?
 
n8076u
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 28):
is that why the tiller moves when going round corners during tows?

Yes, exactly. Funny, I almost mentioned that, but didn't.  Wink The turning gets fed back to the tiller through the steering cables. The rudder pedals don't move at all when this happens, though, if anyone is curious.

Chris
Don't blame me, I don't work here...
 
Matt72033
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting N8076U (Reply 29):
Yes, exactly. Funny, I almost mentioned that, but didn't. The turning gets fed back to the tiller through the steering cables. The rudder pedals don't move at all when this happens, though, if anyone is curious.

so on the other systems you mentioned (737, 777, 757, 767), does the tiller not move?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 17):
Excuse my ignorance but what is a Tiller ?


regds
MEL
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DH106
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:58 pm

That white circular thing then Mel?  Silly
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HAWK21M
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:16 pm

Quoting DH106 (Reply 32):

That white circular thing then Mel

I thought that was the Gasper Outlet......Got to get back to the AMM  biggrin 
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
DH106
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 33):
I thought that was the Gasper Outlet......

Love it  Big grin
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
 
113312
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RE: Nosewheel Controls

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:56 pm

When Ed Swearingen first designed the Merlin/Metro series of turboprops, the plane was steered with an electric motor controlled by a tiller at the left seat. You had to hold down a large button with the palm while steering the circular wheel with the fingers.

This was unpopular with the pilots who were transitioning from light twins so this system was replaced with a variable rate electro/hydraulic steering system through the rudder pedals only.

Frankly, I preferred the tiller.

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