747400sp
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Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:09 am

When the first generation wide body came out, both the trijet had advance cockpit for there day. The 747 100 was referred to by many of books, as a big 707. So my question is did they put any new tech in the 747-100 when they first started service, and if so what where they.


PS please reply in the kind way.  Smile
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:11 am

I think your chronology is a bit off. The 747 was the first widebody. The trijets came a bit later.

As for new technology, the engines were a big leap. More powerful than anything mounted on a commercial airliner and the first major civil application of a high bypass turbofan. In fact, without those engines building a 747 was pretty much impossible.

It also had more redundancy than any other aircraft at that time, including a third wing spar.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
747400sp
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:28 am

I know the 747 was the first widebody. I just was using L-1011 and DC-10 as example. Not to get off topic but the 747 was competitor of the L1011 and DC-10. Boeing just had the gut's and Pan Am backing, to build a bigger plane.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 2):
I know the 747 was the first widebody. I just was using L-1011 and DC-10 as example. Not to get off topic but the 747 was competitor of the L1011 and DC-10. Boeing just had the gut's and Pan Am backing, to build a bigger plane.

They weren't really competitors. Apart from the significant size difference, the 747 was built for long haul, while the triplets were built for transcon/medium haul. Many operators bought the 747 for range first, capacity second, which explains why they got rid of them when the 767s came out. Later versions of the DC-10 and the L-1011 did indeed have extended range in response to customer demand. These can properly be called long haul aircraft.

You can also see it in the customer profile. Pan Am needed longer range than transcon since their route structure was more international.

Boeing did indeed have the guts, but some work on a large aircraft had been done on the Boeing bid for what later became the C-5 (which Boeing lost). The project was possible because of engine technology coming out at the time to power the C-5.

Also, there was a belief at the time that the 747 would be a pax carrier for maybe 15 years before being supplanted by SSTs. This explains the raised cockpit. DC and Lockheed may have felt that building a long haul widebody was unwise at the time. But mostly it was Pan Am actually asking for the plane. If they had asked DC, the aviation world would have been a different place today. But I digress.

[Edited 2006-07-28 22:32:18]

[Edited 2006-07-28 22:36:07]
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vc10
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:41 am

I do not think there was too much difference between the Trijets and the B747 flight deck in that they were analogue gauging and 3 man crew aircraft but in that thay were different as in longhaul aircraft before them there was always a provision to carry a navigator.

So what made the navigator redundant well the inclusion of INS navigation system and the B747 was I believe the first commercial passenger aircraft to have this fitted as standard fit.

I remember that BOAC were so unsure of the reliability of INS that their first few B747 were delivered with a navigation periscope fitting in place.

I am sure it introduced many other new concepts but that is my offering

littlevc10
 
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:49 am

I didn't know there were any -100's built that didn't have the cigarrette smoke removal hole in the top.
By way of technology, the autopilot was a quantum leap forward in integration when compared to others of that time in the '60's; as was the flight director and air data systems. All of these systems interfaced with the result being a much smoother and snag free ride compared to just five years earlier.
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KELPkid
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
- First Boeing with integrated Automatic Flight Control System

What is this? Do tell...is it something similar to the integrated FMS/Autopilots of today?  hyper 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
- First Boeing with integrated Automatic Flight Control System

What is this? Do tell...is it something similar to the integrated FMS/Autopilots of today?

Damnit. Now I have to get the book out again.  Wink

Another advance, for Boeing at least, was the automatic flight control system (AFCS), which integrated several functions. These inclided dual autopilot and flight director systems (AP/FD), a dual-channel yaw damper, and an autothrottle. Boeing called the consolidation of autopilot and flight-director circuitry "a significant innovation in the 747". The combination was achieved because much of the computer capability required for an autopilot was identical to that needed for a flight director. The autopilot function provided fully automatic attitude and heading control and manual control via flight computers or optional contro-wheel steering. The flight directors, meanwhile, displayed the required command to the pilot in most autopilot and flight director modes.

It goes on. But in short, they integrated the Autopilots and the Flight Directors.
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n8076u
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
- Triple slotted flaps?

I think most of your list is spot on, but the 727 had triple slotted TE flaps before the 747, so your question mark was appropriate.  Wink

I have that book too, lots of good info in that one.

Chris
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KELPkid
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
It goes on. But in short, they integrated the Autopilots and the Flight Directors.

Definitely a technical advance for it's day, then. Probably the first true "Push Button, Go Far" implementation, you just switch on the autopilot after takeoff  Wink
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N231YE
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
New features. "?" where I'm not sure if the 747 was first.
- High bypass turbofans
- Third wing spar
- INS
- Widebody fuse
- Triple slotted flaps?
- Four hydraulic systems
- All four hydraulic systems powering all flight controls (apart from spoilers)
- Quadruple main landing gear
- Split control surfaces?
- Cockpit above main deck to facilitate cargo carrying
- Variable camber flaps on the leading edge?
- First Boeing with integrated Automatic Flight Control System

In addition, I believe the 747 was the first to use "composites," but this primative composite material was PVC Honeycomb Plastic with an aluminum coating. It was found on the wing fillets and the vertical stabilizer (I think).
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
Triple slotted flaps?

As previously noted, the 727 and 737 used triple slotted flaps prior to the 747.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
Split control surfaces?

The 727 has a split rudder.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
vc10
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 11):
I believe the 747 was the first to use "composites

The VC-10 flying controls were constructed from the material you described , and that old girl was a bit before the B747

littlevc10
 
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 am

All the VC10's control surfaces were split
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:40 am

Since the moderators deleted my original post due to it containing an advert (oops...), I will repost a corrected version here here.

Using my 747 book as a reference.

New features. "?" where I'm not sure if the 747 was first.
- High bypass turbofans
- Third wing spar
- INS
- Widebody fuse
- Four hydraulic systems
- All four hydraulic systems powering all flight controls (apart from spoilers)
- Quadruple main landing gear
- Cockpit above main deck to facilitate cargo carrying
- Variable camber flaps on the leading edge?
- First Boeing with integrated Automatic Flight Control System
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:54 am

Is it fair to say, that apart from it's size, the 747 didn't pioneer much radically new technology that wasn't a logical continuation of what had been launched on previous aircraft OR would have appeared in the DC10, L1011, A300, BAC311 or whatever? The engines were a massive leap, but then that was the engine manufacturers' leap.

That's not a criticism, just a suggestion that the radical size and financial risk were probably leaps enough.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 15):
Is it fair to say, that apart from it's size, the 747 didn't pioneer much radically new technology that wasn't a logical continuation of what had been launched on previous aircraft OR would have appeared in the DC10, L1011, A300, BAC311 or whatever? The engines were a massive leap, but then that was the engine manufacturers' leap.

That's not a criticism, just a suggestion that the radical size and financial risk were probably leaps enough.

Oddly similar to another large aircraft, the 380.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
VC-10
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
Oddly similar to another large aircraft, the 380.

Another similarity is the way the doomongers are saying the 380 will finish Airbus, the 747 nearly finished Boeing. I well remember seeing photo's of 747's lined up at Everett(?) with childs paddling pools being used as intake blanks in an effort to save money.
 
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 17):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
Oddly similar to another large aircraft, the 380.

Another similarity is the way the doomongers are saying the 380 will finish Airbus, the 747 nearly finished Boeing. I well remember seeing photo's of 747's lined up at Everett(?) with childs paddling pools being used as intake blanks in an effort to save money.

As I recall, they had to hang concrete weights on the pylons to avoid the wing spars distorting since the engines were late.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
As I recall, they had to hang concrete weights on the pylons to avoid the wing spars distorting since the engines were late.

Yes, these were the famous "Block One" engines.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 19):
uoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
As I recall, they had to hang concrete weights on the pylons to avoid the wing spars distorting since the engines were late.

Yes, these were the famous "Block One" engines.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
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DL_Mech
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:52 am

Did any airliner have a multiplexed entertainment system before the 747?
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N231YE
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 21):
Did any airliner have a multiplexed entertainment system before the 747?

If I remember correctly, TWA tried the first in-flight video system, with the film circulating around the cabin, and mini-TV's (I say that jokingly, the Televisions of the early 60's were huge) spaced every 3 rows. The system had a major problem though: While the TVs each recieved the video from the very frame as it went by that row, the sound was picked up at one location only. So passengers would hear sound effects and dialog several minutes before they "saw" it.

I also forgot, the 747 was the first American airliner, if not the THE first airliner period, to have overhead bins as we know them today. Prior to that, the early jets had open racks for carry-on baggage, reminicient of the piston-era airliners.

[Edited 2006-08-02 04:25:59]
 
747400sp
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 22):
the early jets had open racks for carry-on baggage, reminicient of the piston-era airliners.

More like a Greyhound Buses.  Smile
 
boeingfixer
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 10):
In addition, I believe the 747 was the first to use "composites," but this primative composite material was PVC Honeycomb Plastic with an aluminum coating. It was found on the wing fillets and the vertical stabilizer (I think).

The first Boeing to use composites was the 727. Locations of these composites were the radome, fairings and trailing edge panels.

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n8076u
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
As I recall, they had to hang concrete weights on the pylons to avoid the wing spars distorting since the engines were late.

I recall reading that those engine-less 747s would sit on their tails as well, without those concrete blocks acting as ballast.

Chris
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 23):
Quoting N231YE (Reply 22):
the early jets had open racks for carry-on baggage, reminicient of the piston-era airliners.

More like a Greyhound Buses.

And trains.
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Buzz
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:17 pm

Hi Boeing Fixer, Buzz here. One more "advance" that the 747-100's had over the Tri-Jet is a more extensive use of composite panels... besides radome, wing-body fairings, and T.E. fixed panels.
They had a nomex honeycomb/ fiberglass fixed leading edge panels aft of the leading edge, the entire rudder(s) were fiberglass skinned, and I forget if the ailerons and elevator were also fiberglass skinned (none had to come to the old 266 honeycomb shop at SFOMB). These were aluminum parts on the Tri-Jet.
And the cabin had space for pianos, stand up bars... before there was so much emphasis on hauling a lot of people. A different expectation for a different era I guess.
g'day
 
MD-90
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:47 pm

I wonder if the rear flight attendants' bunk area would count as an innovation?
 
flynlr
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:26 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 28):

mile high club referance?
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DL_Mech
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 21):
Did any airliner have a multiplexed entertainment system before the 747?

The keyword here is "multiplexed" and not a hardwired audio/video system.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 30):
multiplexed

Defination with regards to B747.
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MEL
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113312
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:10 am

Most of the stuff was covered in the prior posts. To me, the big items that were new and distinct were the variable camber leading edge flaps, the high bypass engines, a total lack of manual reversion in the flight controls, and the fully integrated Flight Guidance system.
 
andz
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 22):
if not the THE first airliner period, to have overhead bins as we know them today

I took this picture in a VC-10 at Brooklands a few weeks ago. It is the Sultan of Oman's aircraft, ex-Caledonian, and I'm sure the pretty normal looking bins weren't part of the executive fitment.

Sorry for the jaggies I don't have Photoshop!

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Jetlagged
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RE: Did A Boeing 747 -100 Have Any New Tech?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 28):
I wonder if the rear flight attendants' bunk area would count as an innovation?

Way too many possible double meanings in that sentence  Smile

From the thirties onwards, some airliners had passenger sleeping bunks, for first class at least. By all accounts endless opportunities for mile high entertainment. So bunks as such were not new.

Sadly the modern "lie-flat beds" (more like very narrow park benches, mostly) are rather more public.
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