jfrworld
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Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:46 am

OK - I'll admit that my question may be a bit odd, but who decides when a pilot should set the flaps into takeoff position? Is this pilot preference or airline operating procedure.

I fly UA, WN, and US(HP) the most of all the US dometics. I always assumed having flown WN and HP for most of my life that the pilot is supposed to set the flaps just after the plane has been pushed back from the gate, but before the plane begins taxiing to the runway for takeoff (before the plane has begun moving under its own engine power). I never noticed anything different until a UA flight about 6 months ago. We were flying PHX-SFO and after we pushed back, the pilot began taxing without the flaps set. We taxied almost to the end of the runway before the pilot actually set the flaps (I was starting to sweat at this point as I thought the pilot had forgotten). I've flown UA twice and HP twice since then and I notice the same pattern. The UA pilots set the flaps during taxi and the HP pilots set the flaps just after pushback, but before taxi. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
 
jeffry747
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:57 am

If I remember correctly the pilots will start running through the pre-flight checklist immediately after pushback. They will set the flaps when it comes up on the list.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:39 am

On BA it is mandatory to set the flaps after engine start and before taxi. You must set the flaps before you release the brakes.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
On BA it is mandatory to set the flaps after engine start and before taxi. You must set the flaps before you release the brakes.

I know one, maybe two US airlines where you may NOT operate the flaps while in a congested area such as the ramp. Personnel safety is the reason.

Last I seem to recall without looking in my manual is as soon as we began taxiing. Tug disconnects, safety guy pulls his headset plug, first officer gets taxi clearance and captain takes he pushback crew salute and we are off. First officer sets takeoff flaps and maybe drives the stab trim to the proper setting.

One reason for not setting them while the tug is still attached is because you might not have the final flap setting yet.
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jfrworld
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
On BA it is mandatory to set the flaps after engine start and before taxi. You must set the flaps before you release the brakes.

Based on my experiences on WN and HP, I assumed this to be true in all cases. It was only after I was paying attention on UA during the last year did I notice that it doesn't appear to always be the case.

Personally, it makes sense to set the flaps before you release the brakes for taxi. It seems as though you would be less likely to forget this way.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Jfrworld (Reply 4):

Personally, it makes sense to set the flaps before you release the brakes for taxi. It seems as though you would be less likely to forget this way.

One would hope the checklists would take care of it whenever it is done  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
777236ER
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:12 am

If the flaps aren't set by the crew, and there's no memory procedure to follow when turning onto the runway, then you're putting the fate of the aircraft on the configuration warning. It's a system that has failed before and will fail again. There aren't enough redundancies built into the system to justify letting the crew set and crosscheck flaps during the taxi.

Delta 1141 is one crash that springs to mind. I'm sure there are others.
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SlamClick
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:22 am

Should also mention that there can be aircraft system-specific reasons for waiting. If for example the flaps were in transit when the electrical system switches over from APU to engine-driven or from the secondary EDG to the primary it is conceivable that it could fault the flap control system. Ever notice the safety video losing it during the generator changeover?

Not saying it always would, but I could beleive it might, on some aircraft.
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boeingfixer
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 6):
There aren't enough redundancies built into the system to justify letting the crew set and crosscheck flaps during the taxi.

In this day and age of human factors training your above quote makes it appear that those in aviation haven't learned anything from past errors.

It makes no difference whether takeoff flaps are set before or during taxi as long as the checklists are followed. Company SOP's usually dictate when the appropriate check lists are to be carried out. Our SOP is to set takeoff flaps after pushback and the taxi has started.

Cheers,

John
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Starlionblue
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 6):
If the flaps aren't set by the crew, and there's no memory procedure to follow when turning onto the runway, then you're putting the fate of the aircraft on the configuration warning.

You have a good point. But there's really no memory procedure for setting them at pushback either. It's all checklists. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:55 am

I think in the after start checklist or taxi checks for most airliners mentions flaps somewhere. Also, I dont think its possible for most, if not all commercial aircraft to take off flapless or a takeoff configuration warning horn will sound once the throttles are moved above a certain preset setting.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
modesto2
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:06 am

This is an interesting question - one that I always wondered. Hope this helps...

My company policy is to drop the flaps when doing the taxi checklist. And we do the taxi checklist when BOTH engines are running. So, if we push and start both engines, then I'll drop the flaps after both engines are running. That may be before we start rolling or as we start rolling away from the ramp. If it's a one-engine taxi to save fuel, then I drop the flaps after the second engine has been started. That may be just a few minutes before takeoff. As others have stated, we avoid extending the flaps in the ramp area (i.e. during pushback) to ensure adequate clearance from ramp equipment.
 
AJ
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:06 am

We have just switched to Boeing SOP on the 737/744/767 fleets which calls for the flaps to be set immediately before the 'Before Taxi' checklist.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:28 pm

On the B737s out here Company SOP states to Extend LEDs & Confirm with Ground Mx, during Engine Start & Prior to Taxi.
On the B757s Ground Mx does not confirm & the Pilots extend LEDs only after Taxi according to their Checklist.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:40 pm

It depends on the airline...some airlines don't have a taxi checklist, some do. As long as the items get done, and the checklist is approved by the FAA, then each airline can do things in the order they see fit.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
I know one, maybe two US airlines where you may NOT operate the flaps while in a congested area such as the ramp. Personnel safety is the reason.

This our policy and there is no checklist done when crossing a runway. The capt will give the command "cleared to configure" and all items are done then the checklist is read to confirm all actions complete
 
peterpuck
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:42 pm

We set flaps when clear of the congested ramp area. Other possible reasons for late flap extension might be contaminated taxiways (slush), or de-icing procedures.
 
wilco737
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:55 pm

Hey there,

we on LH (737 and 320) fleet we set the flaps and perform the flight control check right after the engines has stabilized at idle, together with the rest of the after start items! Then the after start checklist and then we start taxiing...

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411A
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:12 pm

As many can clearly notice, many variations with specific airline operating procedures.
The last post mentioned contaminated taxiways, ice, snow, etc.
On some aircraft (the B707 comes to mind) the flaps were absolutely NOT moved from the fully retracted position when in these winter conditions, until the airplane was at the end of the taxiway, and in a position to move onto the active runway...and for very good reasons.
Ice and compacted snow on the flaps?
Yes.
Also, the balance bays were more exposed during the period when the flaps were extended, and ice/snow in these areas was very bad news.

The simple answer is...

The flaps are extended when the Commander says they will be extended, and not before.
After the specific taxi items are completed, the taxi checklist is then completed.

So called 'memory' does not enter into the picture.
Set the specific items.
Then call for the specific checklist.

Oh yes, the Commander calls for the checklist, and it is read by either the First Officer or the Flight Engineer, as appropriate, with all airlines that I have worked for.

It ain't a guessing game, you follow the specific airline procedure.
Period.
 
canyonblue737
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:03 pm

A significant safety related item, such as setting flaps for takeoff is ALWAYS dictated by company SOP (standing operating procedure.) What you were seeing is variations between companies, and the fact all the UA pilots set it while in motion while the WN pilots did it before taxi indicates all were following their particular companies SOP. It is becoming more common in the industry to set flaps prior to taxi, in fact to do almost all required checks prior to taxi (to allow pilots to focus on where they are going) but obviously there are still tons of variations on how to fly an airplane.

All are safe, and everything you saw was normal and standard. Also remember all airliner aircraft have systems to warn pilots that they didn't set the flaps properly if they attempt to takeoff without them.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 19):
A significant safety related item, such as setting flaps for takeoff is ALWAYS dictated by company SOP (standing operating procedure.)

Is there something that can be excluded from being a significant safety item? What is a significant safety item? Could be a multitude of things; even the security/power up check can have huge safety impacts. If a company wants to set flaps with the receiving checklist, and that is approved in the opspecs (via the FAA) then that becomes the procedure.

Please read what others have written to avoid duplication.
 
speedracer1407
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:09 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
I know one, maybe two US airlines where you may NOT operate the flaps while in a congested area such as the ramp. Personnel safety is the reason.

A couple questions about that:

First, if takeoff flap settings don't deploy the flaps very far down, do they really pose a danger to ground personnel? As a passenger, it seems like takeoff flaps extend a few inches, and droop a few inches. Nothing more.

Second, since flaps are set, presumably, with at least one engine running, or at least near startup, who's gonna be hanging out near the trailing edge of the wing?
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HAWK21M
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:34 pm

Out here the Explanation given for LED extension on Engine Start up for B737 was for Ground Mx Crew Confirmation that they are Properly Extended.This is in addition to the P5 Overhead display available on P5.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
canyonblue737
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 20):
Is there something that can be excluded from being a significant safety item? What is a significant safety item? Could be a multitude of things; even the security/power up check can have huge safety impacts. If a company wants to set flaps with the receiving checklist, and that is approved in the opspecs (via the FAA) then that becomes the procedure.

Please read what others have written to avoid duplication.

Wow, testy reply... I actually thought we were all contributing to the discussion!

That said you and I both know that numerous items are excluded from checklists that are still part of company mandated flows in many cases, items which are NOT significant safety of flight items hence why there isn't a secondary check.

For example: remembering to switch a radar screen to terrain imaging with EGPWS prior to takeoff (although that is company procedure on a flow lets say) may not be backed up with a checklist since failure to do this will not result in a critical loss, the verbal warnings for terrain will still function.

Flaps are a significant safety of flight item because in many cases the aircraft simply won't fly off most runways without them.

There is a difference IMHO, and from what I have seen in the eyes of the FAA, Aircraft Manufacturers, and Aircraft Operators.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 19):
A significant safety related item, such as setting flaps for takeoff is ALWAYS dictated by company SOP (standing operating procedure.) What you were seeing is variations between companies, and the fact all the UA pilots set it while in motion while the WN pilots did it before taxi indicates all were following their particular companies SOP. It is becoming more common in the industry to set flaps prior to taxi, in fact to do almost all required checks prior to taxi (to allow pilots to focus on where they are going) but obviously there are still tons of variations on how to fly an airplane.

All are safe, and everything you saw was normal and standard. Also remember all airliner aircraft have systems to warn pilots that they didn't set the flaps properly if they attempt to takeoff without them.

You are 100% correct. WN's SOP is to set flaps prior to taxi. UA sets them during taxi. Both companies do it their way every time.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 23):
Wow, testy reply... I actually thought we were all contributing to the discussion!

This is a technical forum...Generic terms such as "safety" and "efficiency" are exactly that; specificity is the key.

What is NOT a safety issue? Anything can, and may well be...

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 23):
items which are NOT significant safety of flight items hence why there isn't a secondary check.

For example: remembering to switch a radar screen to terrain imaging with EGPWS prior to takeoff (although that is company procedure on a flow lets say) may not be backed up with a checklist since failure to do this will not result in a critical loss, the verbal warnings for terrain will still function.

Maybe, maybe not. A lot of EGPWS warnings are ignored. The ASAP database is FULL of EGPWS (and TCAS warnings) that were valid and yet ignored by crews...A couple of them from Reno, for example, in which the a/c missed the terrain by about 35'...

The point is that the phrase "safety" is way too vague...

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 23):
Flaps are a significant safety of flight item because in many cases the aircraft simply won't fly off most runways without them.

Yeah, they'll fly...but not very well. Remember the accident that created the mandate for the t/o config horn in the first place? Everyone assumed the flaps weren't a "safety" item, either as it relates to take off or ground personnel, until that accident.

There is a huge difference b/t those parties, and none of them can, should, or would agree to what a "safety" item is. That is my point.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 24):
You are 100% correct. WN's SOP is to set flaps prior to taxi. UA sets them during taxi. Both companies do it their way every time.

I was in the BUS a few days ago at United they set flaps during engine start.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 26):
I was in the BUS a few days ago at United they set flaps during engine start.

Wow, didn't take long for someone to throw an exception at me. A couple months ago, I was wing-walking one of our 737s (WN) out. I barely finished my solute to the crew and as I took my first step off the active taxiway, the engines spooled and the plane hurriedly began it's taxi. Flaps were not yet set. This scared the sh*t out of me and is the only time in my two years working on the ramp that I had seen one of our planes begin taxiing before setting the flaps. So yes, exceptions do occur.

I observe both WN and UA activities on the ramp at SAN. From what I have seen UA sets flaps during taxi while WN sets them before. The same can be said about checking flight controls. UA and other airlines seem to check them during taxi. WN does it before taxi. It just depends on SOPs for each company.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
canyonblue737
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:36 pm

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 25):
Yeah, they'll fly...but not very well. Remember the accident that created the mandate for the t/o config horn in the first place? Everyone assumed the flaps weren't a "safety" item, either as it relates to take off or ground personnel, until that accident.

There is a huge difference b/t those parties, and none of them can, should, or would agree to what a "safety" item is. That is my point.

Ok a few simple things, and again this is all for point of discussion not to create some kind of fighting match over terms...

1. In regards to flaps I said the plane would not fly off of MOST runways without flaps. Yes a plane can takeoff without flaps, but likely not off most runways and likely not at a miscalculated Vr, V2 speed based on having flaps extended.

2. Yes, everything about flying airplanes revolves around safety. However the very first post that started this thread inquired about differences in setting flaps for takeoff and concerns of differences between carriers. My contribution to the conversation was that flaps are a CRITICAL SAFETY ITEM... meaning they ALWAYS have a checklist item associated with them with EVERY carrier, just that the checklist or action may be carried out at different times. I am sorry, but it is VERY important to separate something like this from the many hundreds of flight crew actions that often are NOT backed up by checklist prompts. Why are some not backed up? Because pilots, carriers, and supervising agencies (like the FAA) have decided that they are NOT CRITICAL SAFETY ITEMS. You could create a checklist "for everything" but then you bury yourself so deep in them that you can actual be counterproductive. I don't know if you fly for or work for a 121 carrier (I assume you do) but surely if you do you know that there are simply some items you CAN NOT MISS, and some well... you shouldn't but it will not be the final link in the chain to an accident.

Summary for the first poster: Flaps are always backed up by a checklist and finally by a warning horn, the folks up front won't forget to do it it just gets done at different times at different carriers.

Summary for EssentialPowr: Somethings are more important that others, but that doesn't mean somethings aren't important.

[Edited 2006-08-04 07:43:33]
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 28):
1. In regards to flaps I said the plane would not fly off of MOST runways without flaps. Yes a plane can takeoff without flaps, but likely not off most runways and likely not at a miscalculated Vr, V2 speed based on having flaps extended.

Right. All it took was 1 accident at DTW; so that's not really a safety issue, "most" of the time...

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 28):
My contribution to the conversation was that flaps are a CRITICAL SAFETY ITEM... meaning they ALWAYS have a checklist item associated with them with EVERY carrier, just that the checklist or action may be carried out at different times.

Only you can define what a "CRITICAL SAFETY ITEM" is, b/c there is no such industry or FAA def. Just b/c something is on a checklist doens't make it safety related, either. I stated that it varied from carrier to carrier, and you repeated that. Anything can be the final link; that is for each carrier to determine b/c and all inclusive list is impossible to generate, or would be so cumbersome that the flight would never occur.

An as far as so items you "CANNOT MISS", surely you recognize the futility in that assertion? Eventually it will, or has been...

If you will read other's posts prior to posting, it will prevent redundancies such as this.

cheers-
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 27):
I barely finished my solute to the crew and as I took my first step off the active taxiway, the engines spooled and the plane hurriedly began it's taxi. Flaps were not yet set. This scared the sh*t out of me and is the only time in my two years working on the ramp that I had seen one of our planes begin taxiing before setting the flaps. So yes, exceptions do occur.

Isn't there a Cockpit to Ground Confirmation on LEDs Extended.
Irrespective.The Crew Checklist will cover LEDs extended & Cross check ovhead lights prior to T/O.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
Isn't there a Cockpit to Ground Confirmation on LEDs Extended.
Irrespective.The Crew Checklist will cover LEDs extended & Cross check ovhead lights prior to T/O.
regds
MEL

I'm not really sure what you are asking and why. But if it has to do with what I said about it scaring the sh*t out of me, I meant that it scared me because I was still very close to the aircraft and was not expecting it.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bri2k1
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:31 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
Isn't there a Cockpit to Ground Confirmation on LEDs Extended.

I haven't heard of this before. Doesn't the 737 have a LE FLAPS EXT indicator below the flap position gauge? It's illuminated in green in these photos:
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Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 28):
In regards to flaps I said the plane would not fly off of MOST runways without flaps. Yes a plane can takeoff without flaps, but likely not off most runways and likely not at a miscalculated Vr, V2 speed based on having flaps extended.

I believe you're likely to blow the tires on a long enough runway to permit takeoff without flaps at usual takeoff weights.
Position and hold
 
canyonblue737
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 29):
Right. All it took was 1 accident at DTW; so that's not really a safety issue, "most" of the time...

We are talking about the same thing and in totally agreement! Again, again, again... failure to set flaps equals likely loss of the airframe, crew and passengers. The reason I said "most" is that some smart guy on the forum will come out here and correctly demonstrate at a certain weight, at certain vr/v2 speeds, and a certain runway length you can successfully fly with flaps 0 in a boeing/airbus. The reality is if this mistake happens in real life and the warning horn doesn't work (ie. DTW) the crew will have a) too short a runway and b) attempt to rotate and fly at a speed appropriate for takeoff flaps... far too slow to actually get it to fly. The end result is what happened to the DC-9 in that tragic accident. We agree!

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 29):

An as far as so items you "CANNOT MISS", surely you recognize the futility in that assertion? Eventually it will, or has been...

If you will read other's posts prior to posting, it will prevent redundancies such as this.

Sorry, Essential Powr but I couldn't disagree more. Managing risk and increasing safety is all about prioritizing things. If you try to be perfect you never will be and fail, if you understand how to manage the flaws of humans and machines so that a critical failure (ie. one that results in damage or death) never occurs it is more likely to have a positive outcome.

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 32):

I believe you're likely to blow the tires on a long enough runway to permit takeoff without flaps at usual takeoff weights.

It would be close at max takeoff weight for a 737 because going off memory a flaps 0 landing above MLW and near MTOW would be right at max tire operating speeds, so assuming that the landing target speed would obviously fly the airplane you would have a chance if you rotated right near the limit. I am fairly certain with enough runway and a knowledge that flaps were at 0 you would have a chance (but again this is a stupid point since no one would ever do this.)

The reality of course is if this mistake was made in real life and the warning horn didn't work, the crew would end up trying to rotate too early for a setting they were unaware of.

[Edited 2006-08-04 14:05:28]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:04 pm


LED Flap/Slat Annunciator on P5


Annunciator on P2

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 32):
I haven't heard of this before. Doesn't the 737 have a LE FLAPS EXT indicator below the flap position gauge? It's illuminated in green in these photos

In Addition on the P5 Aft Ovhd Panel to the Right tou have the LED Annunciators too.

But on Start up out here on the B737s.A Confirmation from Grd crew is sought for LEDs Extended on both sides,prior to disconnect.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 33):
Managing risk and increasing safety is all about prioritizing things. If you try to be perfect you never will be and fail, if you understand how to manage the flaws of humans and machines so that a critical failure (ie. one that results in damage or death) never occurs it is more likely to have a positive outcome.

I have a bit of experience in human factors, and what you have written is obviously a worthy goal. The point is that every operation must determine what it emphasizes in terms of safety, b/c anything...even the smallest lack of attention to detail (how about how pushbacks and the nose gear steering disconnect pin on the 737 is handled...a whipping towbar injured several before the procedures were reevaluated by many airlines.)

The bigger point is that, in most cases, most "CRITICAL SAFETY ITEMS" as you put it, become that way not b/c of forberance but are reactionary, ie the result of an accident.

cheeers-
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:12 am

Just wanted to add that at my company we will not extend the flaps on the ground until both engines are started.

In this day of fuel coservation, we will usually not start the second engine (and therefore extend the flaps) until we are #3 or 4 in line for departure. The reason for this is that the T/O configuration warning will not warn us if we are about to takeoff with only one engine running, however, it will alert us if we haven't extended the flaps.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:29 am

trim in the green
flaps at t/o
parking brake not set
spoilers stowed...

what'd I forget re: the config horn on the erj?
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:54 am

I believe you got 'em all.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 36):
ust wanted to add that at my company we will not extend the flaps on the ground until both engines are started.

The reason for this is that the T/O configuration warning will not warn us if we are about to takeoff with only one engine running, however, it will alert us if we haven't extended the flaps.

That's strange, why somebody in the past has tried to takeoff with one engine?
 
2H4
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:27 am




Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 39):
That's strange, why somebody in the past has tried to takeoff with one engine?

Plenty of Skymaster pilots have....




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:02 am

re: inadvertant single engine t/o; I believe in happened at Cont Exp. on the ATR as well...
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 39):
That's strange, why somebody in the past has tried to takeoff with one engine?

Yes, it has happened, luckily it will simply result in an aborted takeofff, since the condition will be obvious once powered is applied and the plane will not stay on centerline. I suppose it could ultimately end with a pile of flaming wreckage in the grass off the side of the runway if it really gets out of hand, difficult to imagine that though.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:18 am

Spool times on 737s, esp. Classics with high time engines, can be significantly different resulting in a rapid turn due to the asymetry, which is why a lot of airlines spool them to 40% N1, and then engage the A/Ts above 70%N1 or so.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 43):
Spool times on 737s, esp. Classics with high time engines, can be significantly different resulting in a rapid turn due to the asymetry, which is why a lot of airlines spool them to 40% N1, and then engage the A/Ts above 70%N1 or so.

Ahhh, good to know...I've always wondered why they did that when I'm up there on the j/s.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:09 pm

We set flaps, trim, turn off APU, check the EICAS recall and engine anti-ice all after engine start and before we taxi.

We used to set trims and flaps after we started taxying, but it is safer to have one extra set of eyes looking out whilst taxying. Apron aircraft collisions are way too common an occurence.

As for the checklist, we do the items then use the checklist to ensure those items have been done. We do not read off the checklist and them perform the checks. This method may work for a guy who flies his business jet once every two weeks, but not one of the world's best airlines.

As for doing it when "The captain calls for it", that statement in itself speaks of little CRM, either to the individual, or the corporate culture of the operation. In some operations this is understandable, especially if the captains tend to be experienced and the FOs inexperienced or generally not very competant. Most major airlines operate in a Pilot Flying/Pilot Not Flying (now often called Pilot Monitoring) role. When it is the PF's turn to fly the plane, he takes the reins and assumes controls confidently, regardless of the number of stripes on his/her shoulder.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 45):
When it is the PF's turn to fly the plane, he takes the reins and assumes controls confidently, regardless of the number of stripes on his/her shoulder.

I agree w/ most of that post, w/ the exception of the above quote. From 1 major's perspective, the captain is in command, and no flows/checklists are run until called for. There are alternatives in the event the Ca forgets to call for a checklist.

Different companies, different methods..
 
usair320
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:46 pm

I know both AA and DL pilots set the flaps during the initial start-up of the engines.Also on my recent WN flight from ABQ-PHX the crew didnt extend the flaps until we lined up for position and hold on RWY 8. My heart was pumping but I knew this was a 737NG which has an alarm indicating that the pilots did not set the flaps. Also any other airline beside UA I have flown set the flaps during the initial startup or at least the taxy out.

Gage
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:41 pm

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 37):
trim in the green
flaps at t/o
parking brake not set
spoilers stowed...

what'd I forget re: the config horn on the erj?

Any of the below not in configuration stated.
Parking Brake Released
Spoilers in Down Detent
Flaps/Slats in T/O range.
Stablizer in Green Band.

& Thrust Levers Moved forward.

Causes the T/O warning.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Setting Flaps For Takeoff While Taxiing?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 46):
I agree w/ most of that post, w/ the exception of the above quote. From 1 major's perspective, the captain is in command, and no flows/checklists are run until called for. There are alternatives in the event the Ca forgets to call for a checklist

At my airline, all pilots are regarded as Captains in training and are encouraged to be a part of any decision making process as much as possible. Obviously only the captain signs for the logbook, and he is still in command. If the FO does anything wrong then of course his word is final, however on a normal flight, the FO really is encouraged to be assertive and fly the plane as if he was in command, as opposed to deferring to the captain the entire time. As you say, different airlines, different ways of operating, but I believe that giving the FO as many of the decisions as possible makes the transition from right to left easier, as they are already operating as 'mini captains'

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