Boston92
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Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:17 am


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Just wondering how a 747 landed here with a 6000 ft runway.

[Edited 2006-08-09 00:22:29]
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kcrwflyer
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:26 am

You'd be surprised how little runway the largest of aircraft use when empty.
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:30 am

Well in EDI we see charter B747's during Rugby season etc. We had an AF B743 in earlier this year which i presume was full on departure and even though the fuel would be low for EDI-ORY the aircraft still rotated 1/2 - 3/4 down the runway.

That is between 4200ft and 6300ft (roughly) so i'd say a B747 could easily depart on a 6000ft runway so long as it was not full loaded nor fully fuelled.

Thanks
Mike
 
pwm2txlhopper
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Just wondering how a 747 landed here with a 6000 ft runway.


It's not really anything to be surprised by and has a simple answer.... The aircraft was not fully loaded with cargo/passengers, and was carrying a light load of fuel making it quite capable of operating on a 6000ft runway.

Also, there isn't really a standard takeoff/landing distance for any one aircraft. The distance needed for an aircraft to takeoff and land all depends on numerous variables such as pay load and fuel weight, air temperature, field elevation, etc.

[Edited 2006-08-09 00:42:04]
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 2):
That is between 4200ft and 6300ft (roughly) so i'd say a B747 could easily depart on a 6000ft runway so long as it was not full loaded nor fully fuelled.

The MTOW is 910k from 10,100' at sea level/standard day.

The MTOW is about 712k from 6,000' of runway at sea level/standard day.

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dogfighter2111
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 4):
The MTOW is about 712k from 6,000' of runway at sea level/standard day.

Monster weight penalty.

No kidding! I take it that the aircraft could start it's rotation if fully loaded with hardly any fuel at about 6000ft on a longer runway, but those figures are just for safety? Or are they figures you calculated just now?

Thanks
Mike
 
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STT757
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:43 am

I've seen 747-200s, 747-400s land on EWR's runway 11/29 many times.

EWR's runway 11/29 is 6,800ft long.
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Falcon Flyer
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:24 am

There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 5):
No kidding! I take it that the aircraft could start it's rotation if fully loaded with hardly any fuel at about 6000ft on a longer runway, but those figures are just for safety? Or are they figures you calculated just now?

Boeing numbers.
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:51 am

SXM has a runway that is just over 7000ft, and 747's take off and land there all the time.

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steeler83
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:01 am

Someone said that AGC can land a 747, and I believe its runway is 6500ft in length, or 1.23 miles...
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N670UW
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 10):
Someone said that AGC can land a 747, and I believe its runway is 6500ft in length, or 1.23 miles...

It could land, but would have to be lightly-loaded to takeoff again. Maneuvering on the ground might be a problem. It's not the most spacious of airports.
 
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:07 pm

I've seen AF1 land @ Patrick AFB and I believe its only 7500ft in length. So yes a 747 can land and depart on short runways. Its part of its STOL capability. Go in heavy and take off light. You just have to know your mins.

Say I want to fly a 747 routing AMS-SXM-AMS. I would bring on a full load of fuel so after I land @ SXM it has fuel to get to CUR, but its light enogh to take off.

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brons2
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:12 pm

I have seen video of a QF 744 at an airshow somewhere in Australia taking off in less than 4000 feet. Maybe less than 3000. It must have been totally empty. They spun up the engines to full boil and let the brakes off. Literally the takeoff roll was no more than 10 seconds. The plane screamed by the photographer, who was about halfway down, already a good 100 feet off the runway
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 9):
SXM has a runway that is just over 7000ft, and 747's take off and land there all the time.

But typically the KLM 744s must depart being weight restricted and must make a fuel stop at SDQ, MIA, CUR or FLL on the way back to AMS. I'm certain the same applies for the AF A340 headed for CDG. It does amaze me however what this airport (SXM) originally developed as a US Navy ASW base during WWII has turned into, especially over the last 20 years. Who would have thought of 744s landing and departing back as recently as the early 1970s?

[Edited 2006-08-09 05:30:43]For Spelling

[Edited 2006-08-09 05:31:31]
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BreninTW
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 7):
There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.

It's a B742 "Lebombo" that was ferried to Rand as a museum piece there. I wish I'd been there to see it land! I believe there's been some talk of SAA donating an -SP for the museum at Rand as well.

Bren
 
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 12):
Go in heavy and take off light

Going in heavy doesn't help decrease your landing distance. Quite the reverse - it increases it.

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MCIGuy
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:14 pm

I became a believer when a C-5 landed at MKC.
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boysteve
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:57 pm

Remember that BA 744 that made an emergency landing in Kazakhstan? It was fully loaded with pax however probably only had half of it's fuel left at the time.
 
andz
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 7):
There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.

It is a museum piece at Rand, you can see it in this photo. The runway is only 50ft wide and 5,446ft long, and when Lebombo landed it stopped before the intersection shown in this picture (landed from bottom right). The runway was only a bogie width wider than the main landing gear!

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This link has the airfield plate and some comments from the captain who did the landing, as well as some great photos of the landing.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121600

Here you can see how close to the terminal she is parked!

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Quoting Brenintw (Reply 15):
there's been some talk of SAA donating an -SP for the museum at Rand as well.

It is at JNB ready to be moved, just red tape holding it up I believe.
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squawk0303
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:52 pm

i guess those short field landing pay off one time or another
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:10 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 8):
Boeing numbers.

Great, thanks! So i take it that because they are Boeing numbers they will not be exact as they will allow excess runway for safety purposes?

Thanks
Mike
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:14 pm

Quoting Andz (Reply 19):
It is at JNB ready to be moved, just red tape holding it up I believe.

I might just have to try to fly home to JNB to see that when it does happen! It'd be amazing to watch the -SP land at Rand. If I remember correctly, last time I flew HKG-JNB on SA, it was on an -SP.

Bren
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 5):
No kidding! I take it that the aircraft could start it's rotation if fully loaded with hardly any fuel at about 6000ft on a longer runway, but those figures are just for safety? Or are they figures you calculated just now?



Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 21):
So i take it that because they are Boeing numbers they will not be exact as they will allow excess runway for safety purposes?

The numbers are very exact. But they do include provisions for emergencies. For example, landing distances have a 50% pad factor. In other words, you should be able to land with 2/3 of the runway. Take-off distances take into consideration the need to be able to brake from V1 in case of an engine failure.

The actual take-off and landing rolls will always be much shorter than the posted number.
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 7):
There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.







Edit: Found the 2nd picture - link here.

[Edited 2006-08-09 14:23:25]

[Edited 2006-08-09 14:23:57]
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 23):
The numbers are very exact. But they do include provisions for emergencies. For example, landing distances have a 50% pad factor. In other words, you should be able to land with 2/3 of the runway. Take-off distances take into consideration the need to be able to brake from V1 in case of an engine failure.

The actual take-off and landing rolls will always be much shorter than the posted number.

Yeh, that is what i meant. Thanks for confirming  Smile

Mike
 
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Sun May 02, 2010 4:57 pm

I've always wanted to watch a 747 land at Kemble but I don't know where to get information about when the next 747 will come to get scraped. Does anyone know of date?
 
StarAC17
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Sun May 02, 2010 6:53 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 14):
I'm certain the same applies for the AF A340 headed for CDG. It does amaze me however what this airport (SXM) originally developed as a US Navy ASW base during WWII has turned into, especially over the last 20 years. Who would have thought of 744s landing and departing back as recently as the early 1970s?

IIRC the AF A343 used on CDG-SXM-CDG doesn't need a fuel stop, whether or not that flight is weight restricted I'm not sure.

Also I think the biggest problem at SXM isn't getting the planes off the ground given the length of the runway, its getting those heavies to clear the mountains east of the runway.
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lowrider
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Sun May 02, 2010 8:34 pm

We don't carry plates for anything shorter than 6000 ft. Shorter runways are possible, but have little practical use outside demonstration value.
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kanban
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Mon May 03, 2010 9:49 pm

Renton Municipal is only 5380ft and they brought the first 747 3 production A?C (not RA001) in for retrofit after cert testing... no problem except the first one came in too low and smacked the main gear on the seawall (technically the lake wall)

wasn't pretty to watch
 
MSY772LR
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Tue May 04, 2010 6:23 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 14):
I'm certain the same applies for the AF A340 headed for CDG.

It doesn't. It comes and goes from CDG nonstop.
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thegeek
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Tue May 04, 2010 7:37 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 12):
Say I want to fly a 747 routing AMS-SXM-AMS. I would bring on a full load of fuel so after I land @ SXM it has fuel to get to CUR, but its light enogh to take off.

How does it matter to your take off roll whether the fuel has been loaded in SXM or AMS?? Take off is the more critical movement.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 4):
The MTOW is about 712k from 6,000' of runway at sea level/standard day.

So, how come the UA 747 which made an unscheduled stop in WLG in 1991 needed to offload cargo and passengers to get airborne again? WLG is 6729ft (or 2051m) according to wiki.
 
tsra
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 17):

MKC sees large military planes often. I have heard that C-130s, C-17s, and a variety of fighter jet crews will fly in and drive across the river to get some BBQ.
Here is a bit of history, Obama will be the first president not to fly into MKC when going to Kansas City since the inseption of Air Force One.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:14 am

Note: Reply 32 is bump on a 2 year old thread (and a reply to a 6 year old portion)...just make sure you read the whole thread before replying further.

Tom.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 31):
So, how come the UA 747 which made an unscheduled stop in WLG in 1991 needed to offload cargo and passengers to get airborne again? WLG is 6729ft (or 2051m) according to wiki.

Sounded weird to me.

But then I found a poster at skyscrapercity.com who tells that the reason was runway surface strength, not length.

That UA 747 was short on fuel due to fog at both destination and alternate, and it was diverted to WLG for an "overweight" landing (overweight according to runway strength). But it was not allowed to make an overweight takeoff.

BTW, Qantas operated the WLG-SYD route using 747SP for several years some 30 years ago when ETOPS wasn't invented yet (Air NZ used DC-8). The 747SP had a considerably lower empty weight than the 747-200, but anyway it was of course severely weight restricted.

From the mid 80'es ETOPS 767-200s took over.
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RussianJet
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:49 am

Remember the BA 744 emergency landing in Uralsk? I believe they had to send other aircraft to ferry the pax as it would not get off that runway fully-loaded. They had 7612 feet.
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hotelmode
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 35):

That wasn't because of runway length it was because the runway bearing strength was not enough to permit a loaded 747.

[Edited 2012-09-20 12:03:05]
 
RussianJet
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting hotelmode (Reply 36):
That wasn't because of runway length it was because the runway bearing strength was not enough to permit a loaded 747.

A-ha? Never realised that! Thanks.
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Aircellist
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:50 pm

At the time, I saw an AC 747 take-off from YUL's shortest runway (7001 ft). I suppose it was empty, flying back from the workshops at YUL to the flightline at YMX. Rolling from the eastern part of 10/28, it was in the air at the taxiway facing the terminal (it was also the time when we could look outside from the land part of the terminal...). I'd say less than 3500 ft.  Wow!
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PC12Fan
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 1):
You'd be surprised how little runway the largest of aircraft use when empty



Not 747 caliber but I remember visiting Seattle area and checked out Renton. Saw a UPS 752F go on a test flight, and the thing used just over 2000' to get airborne. That was awesome!!
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dlednicer
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:47 pm

During the early days of the 747 program, test airframes were flown into Renton to be refurbished before delivery. Renton's runway is 5382 feet long. Yes, on December 13, 1969, the gear got torn off of N732PA, when it touched down short at Renton.

However, I think one of the ultimate demonstrations of 747 short-field performance was the delivery of N487GX to Shelton Washington for scrapping. The runway is 5005 feet long and I'm told that they didn't even use the whole runway.

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tdscanuck
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RE: Minimum Runway Length For 747

Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting dlednicer (Reply 40):
Renton's runway is 5382 feet long. Yes, on December 13, 1969, the gear got torn off of N732PA, when it touched down short at Renton.

The report is here:
http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/dvdfiles/US/1969-12-13-US.pdf

It's a fun read.

Tom.

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