ReidYYZ
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Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:57 pm

I have a set of B767 and Vickers Viscount maintenance training manuals from AC. I don't want to sell them, but will consider interesting trades. Note, I only want to do this locally (greater YYZ area) , no shipping, no paypal, none of that. I'm into airline memorobilia, IM me and we'll talk.
Regards,
Reid
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:48 pm

Too bad you are restricting to YYZ.I would have been keen on the B767 Training notes.What type B767 & Are these in CDRom or Hardcopies.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
avioniker
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:04 pm

Be very, very careful of the export restrictions on technical data. It doesn't matter if it's current or not. You technically can't even give it away until you verify the citizenship of the receiver.
A lot of people are spending a lot of money explaining things to the governments on both sides of our northern/southern (depending on your view) border these days.
You should have seen the stink when we cleaned house after we were bought by the Oklahoma boys and threw the stuff in a dumpster - OOF-DA
Take it from one who knows and has to deal with it daily . . .
 

[Edited 2006-08-10 15:06:00]
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:06 pm

Yeah, I have to agree with Avioniker on this one. As somebody who works with CMMs and Aircraft IPLs on a daily basis, I'm reminded by manufacturers (component and aircraft alike) that these are proprietary information and cannot be shared with anyone.

You can get yourself into some hot water for even advertising that you have them if you're not supposed to.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:38 am

Wouldn't Training Manuals be only restricted to Copying.These are not AMMs.
Do Training Manuals belonging to Someone attending Approved Training courses be restricted.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:06 am

In my dealings, anything that is printed by the manufacturer, regardless of content, is not allowed to be distributed to an unapproved source.

I'm not sure about training manuals, because I have limited no experience with them, but from CMMs, AMMs, SB's, Service Letters and TRs, nothing is to leave our facility without consent from the manufacturer.

I would imagine that Boeing would not want an approved training manual, current or not, distributed to anyone that isn't approved.

See, the thing is, Boeing would probably charge a BOATLOAD of money to someone for that same manual. I can think of a couple of OEMs that charge ridiculous amounts of money, like $15K+ for Temporary Revisions alone (1-2 pages.)

If you're distributing them, you're taking easy money out of their pocket.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting ReidYYZ (Thread starter):
I have a set of B767 and Vickers Viscount maintenance training manuals from AC. I don't want to sell them, but will consider interesting trades. Note, I only want to do this locally (greater YYZ area) , no shipping, no paypal, none of that. I'm into airline memorobilia, IM me and we'll talk.

Help me with this, where in the above does it say I want to sell them? Where in the above does it say I want to distribute copies? Where does it say I want to export them? Where does it say that I have them but am not supposed to? Where does it say that I will be providing revisions? Where does it say that I have CMMs, AMMs, SB's, Service Letters and TRs available to a good home? Ladies and Gentlemen, it says none of that. I figured some young enthusiasts punk would be interested in them in exchange for a couple safety cards or 'junior captain' wings, but no, the killjoys have come out and rained on this parade. Anyone still interested can swing by my neighbourhood next monday night, they will still be available, but now in the recycling box. (Oh crap, what citizenship does my Refuse Transfer Engineer hold?)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 5):
I would imagine that Boeing would not want an approved training manual, current or not, distributed to anyone that isn't approved.

Training Manuals only Impart Information for Passing Approved training courses.While working on Aircraft other Documents like AMMs are reffered.So why should there be a restriction on someone reading a copy of the training Manual,as long as there is no copy being made.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
avioniker
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:45 pm

Here's a few information sources should you ever need them:

Resources:

Aeronautical Repair Station Association
Phone: 703 739 9543
Web: www.arsa.org
ARSA's Hotline story about export compliance:
www.arsa.org/files/ExportComplianceSeries.pdf

Bureau of Industry and Security
www.bxa.doc.gov

Directorate of Defense Trade Controls
www.pmdtc.org

List of Banned Persons: www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sdn/

Office of Foreign Assets Control
www.treas.gov/ofac

U.S. Customs and Border Protection
www.cbp.gov

John J. Brodbeck
USA Compliance
Phone: 828-369-5152
www.usacompliance.org

Gary Wilmarth
Wilmarth & Associates
Phone: 860-651-8544
www.wilmarth-associates.com

Suzanne Palmer
Export Compliance Solutions
Phone: 410-757-1919
www.exportcompliancesolutions.com
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
liedetectors
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Thread starter):
I don't want to sell them, but will consider interesting trades.

You should have told me earlier, I just threw out my complete extra copy of the Falcon 900EX flight manual. Citation III as well.
If it was said by us, then it must be true.
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 6):
Where in the above does it say I want to distribute copies?



Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 6):
I figured some young enthusiasts punk would be interested in them in exchange for a couple safety cards or 'junior captain' wings

Right there. You just offered to distribute a training manual to an unapproved source. It doesn't matter if you sell, trade or give intellectual property to another party. It all falls into the "distribution" category.

But, if you still think I'm "raining on your parade" I can call my contacts at Boeing Lit and have them explain to you which laws you'd be breaking.

By the way, despite the fact that you "turn wrenches on the big 'uns," those manuals don't belong to you. They were given to you by your airline. Ask your techlit department if you were allowed to take them home. My guess is no, they should have never left the hangar.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
DarrenBe
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:22 am

Quite ironically these 'distribution' rules are broken every hour of every day, within the aviation industry, due to the very nature of the business. The manufacturers are just as guilty as the airlines!!!!

If these rules were followed to the letter, the industry would ground to a halt very quickly indeed!
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:40 am

I don't disagree with you Darren, but this guy should have the common sense to not advertise the fact on a public forum that is frequented by industry professionals.

My original post was to warn this guy that he may get himself in trouble. He's the one who got really pissy for no reason.

These are the kind of people who make a.net less enjoyable.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:08 am

Need your views on this Senario.
Presuming "A" attended an Approved training course with his Airline concerned & was given Training notes to study for Passing the exams.
On completion if "A" gives those books to "B" who is also an Employee of that Airline but is not Eligible for training until another year,but needed those books to study.Should "A" give the Books to "B" or NOT.

Tell me from a Legal & Practical Point of view.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
DarrenBe
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:23 am

I can see your point and there should be an element of common sense when disposing of such material.

Most training materials over the past 15 years or so have been produced and distributed by 3rd Parties. Despite the 'rules', there are literally no controls in place for these materials, so its impossible to 'trace' the ownership of these documents.

Of course 'controlled' documents such as AMMS, CMMs, IPCs, AFMs etc etc are completely different, as you previously pointed out. I've got first hand experience over the draconian measures surrounding these documents.
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:31 am

Hawk, first offf, I don't want to come across as an expert on intellectual property or even maintenance and training manuals.

But, in the context you're asking, I wouldn't think there would be a problem in passing manuals between two employees of an authorized user (operator.)

Just like I said, I believe the owner/operator of the aircraft is the owner of the manual and can distribute the manuals for use within the company. However, I do not believe they are authorized to make copies of the manuals for distribution to employees. Generally, OEMs and aircraft manufacturers give the manuals to operators with very strict rules. I know that we, as a repair station, are told outright by the agreements we sign with manufacturers that the manuals are not to be copied, distributed to anyone outside our company, nor are they allowed to leave the premises.

So, to reiterate, I can't imagine that Boeing (for example) would be too uptight about "A" giving training materials to "B" if they both work for the same airline.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:12 am

I can see the case for the 767 manuals, but the Vickers Viscount? No. That is an airplane that was produced in the '40s and '50s and according to A.net, only 3 were known to be in service in 2004, all in Africa. I think it would be very interesting to read through those old manuals.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
greasespot
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 11):
By the way, despite the fact that you "turn wrenches on the big 'uns," those manuals don't belong to you. They were given to you by your airline. Ask your techlit department if you were allowed to take them home. My guess is no, they should have never left the hangar.

In most organizations up here the manuals do not come from Boeing,,,,,,,Our manuals for B737 and B727 were produced 100% in house and say for training purposes only. Not to be used in place of the approved MM...They are not even copyrighted.


Now I took my B727 From flightcraft......I do not work for Flightcraft.....My work bought me a seat in their class, the Endorsement is in my name and not work...They cannot take it away as it is part of my lisc. that I lend to work.

So i ask you do those manuals beling to me or my employer......My B737 manuals came from a contract teacher who had nothing to do with my employer...

Since the endorsment is mine then the books are mine to do with as I please.

No where do the manual eplain how to do anything with the airplane. They just explain how a system works...They do not even say this is how you run the airplane or turn power on....They do sxplain how the EPR system works....how the Bus protecion cct works.....But it doesn ot say "to start the ening you do this".....

There is a big difference between an operational manual and a maintenance course manual.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 18):
Greasespot

Are the FlightCraft manuals from Boeing, or are they training manuals that FlightCraft wrote? Or, are they written by FlightCraft as part of a Boeing approved training course?

Either way, I'd tend to agree with you that those are your manuals, not your employers, and are probably not intellectual property.

The point of my replies has been this:

Quoting ReidYYZ (Thread starter):
I have a set of B767 and Vickers Viscount maintenance training manuals from AC

The thread starter says he has manuals from AC. These were given to Air Canada and not intended to be taken from the operator by an employee who is now offering them in trade to the general public.

BTW, whether or not a manual tells you how to operate the aircraft makes no difference. Boeing does not want to share the secrets of system design with competitors. For example: If Boeing's EPR system is different and more efficient than Airbus', do you think that B would want A to know how it works differently, or would they want that kept secret?
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
greasespot
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 19):
Are the FlightCraft manuals from Boeing, or are they training manuals that FlightCraft wrote? Or, are they written by FlightCraft as part of a Boeing approved training course?

None of the above....The are written by flightcraft as part of a transport canada approved B727 course....

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 19):
The thread starter says he has manuals from AC. These were given to Air Canada and not intended to be taken from the operator by an employee who is now offering them in trade to the general public.

No what he is saying is he has manuals given to him from a course Aircanada gave on the B767...It says no where that the manuals were given to Aircanada...

I think the confusion comes from the differences between what goes on in Canada and the USA...

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 19):
BTW, whether or not a manual tells you how to operate the aircraft makes no difference. Boeing does not want to share the secrets of system design with competitors

Umm Boeing bought some A340's....I am sure they know how the systems at Airbus works....Same goes for Airbus as they have taken Boeing aircraft in trade...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 20):
None of the above....The are written by flightcraft as part of a transport canada approved B727 course....

Unless FlightCraft told you expressly not to distibute them there's no problem, as long as you don't sell them.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 20):
No what he is saying is he has manuals given to him from a course Aircanada gave on the B767

Are you sure what he has was written by AC? Even if this is so, I'm sure Air Canada doesn't want them out there. Again, intellectual property.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 20):
Umm Boeing bought some A340's....I am sure they know how the systems at Airbus works....Same goes for Airbus as they have taken Boeing aircraft in trade...

Yes, they may know each others' systems work, but do you really think they want to share the info freely? Trust me, I myself have signed confidentiality agreements that expressly state the rules for distribution of aviation related manuals and the like. Manufacturers do not want these things out there in circulation. They threaten legal action against people for just this.

By the way, why is everybody so aggravated with me? I'm just trying to keep this guy out of trouble. My life would be a lot easier if I could get manuals for free from any source I wanted.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 20):
By the way, why is everybody so aggravated with me? I'm just trying to keep this guy out of trouble. My life would be a lot easier if I could get manuals for free from any source I wanted.

Don't look at it that way.No ones aggravated.Its just a Debate trying to find the Right Answer to a complicated Rule.
It would help if all get it legally correct.
regds
MEl
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:37 pm

As i was preparing my rebuttal rant, I had a moment of clarity. That moment came when I re-read something and saw it for what it is:

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 5):
I'm not sure about training manuals, because I have limited no experience with them

THAT, right there, EasternSon, disqualifies your statements. You have no first hand knowledge regarding Transport Canada authorized maintenance training courses and the documentation provided for these courses. Nor do you know of the circumstances surrounding this set in question or of the 4 other sets of training manuals I possess from courses I have had (two of which are factory courses). Furthermore, statements (yes, taken out of context, but showing an interesting pattern) such as:

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 5):
I would imagine



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 5):
Boeing would probably



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 10):
My guess is no



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 15):
I wouldn't think



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 15):
I believe



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 15):
I do not believe

are guesses, pure and simple.

To say:

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 15):
I don't want to come across as an expert on intellectual property or even maintenance and training manuals.

and then to continue to 7 replies (out of 21) arguing ad nauseum trying to convey your opinion as statements of fact would make anyone a little pissy. We are not speaking of CMMs, AMMs, SB's, Service Letters and TRs.

When one makes repeated arguments on subjects that they have limited or no first hand experience or knowledge, it is indeed aggravating and:

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 12):
the kind of people who make a.net less enjoyable.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 22):

So Apart from the replies.....whats the Rules regarding Training Manuals.Have We found a common Answer yet.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
EasternSon
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:37 pm

You're right, I do have LIMITED experience with training manuals. Notice I didn't say NO experience.

Like I said, I was just trying to warn you that there may be legal implications to your offer and you should either look into them or rethink where and how you make an offer like this.

Obviously, you don't care. So be it. I hope you find someone to take your manuals.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:44 pm

I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MattRB
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:50 am

I've got some CRJ materials laying around. Don't know if that would be any interest (I'll inventory when I get home).

[Edited 2006-08-14 19:51:03]
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 24):
I hope you find someone to take your manuals.

Thanks, I did. The recycling guy.

[Edited 2006-08-18 17:59:55]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 27):
Thanks, I did. The recycling guy.

Big loss I guess.  Sad
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Slackman33
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:51 am

Hey Gang.., I'm the NFG around here.., but I was an Aviation Paralegal for a couple years, got over 27 years in the US military, and just came off a year or so as Lead Audit Inspector for a US 145 Repair Station in southern California. System (our system) works this way. A/C arrives at the front door. Pilot gets out, then hands the "documentation", CD's usually, to the Quality Assurance Manager.., who in turn moves the work cards to Planning, and the CD's (AMM, IPC, SRM, Wiring) on to me (also the Data Coordinator) where I put it on our computer system. Now while the A/C is being worked, of course the Techs must make copies of the work data, which is marked "Uncontrolled Data" and then used by them to complete the work card. Now, those copies are usually returned to the Audit Inspector, along with the completed word cards, then after the AI is assured the proper data was used, those copies are tossed (except for AD's,and SB's). When the whole projectis boxed up,then the CD's are returned to the customer. Frankly, the whole repair station business would end.., if some "slippage" wasn't allowed for, as on more then one accation I had an old 727-100 Cargo that only had the old casettes for the IPC, and only Book I of the AMM. The rest I pieced togather from Air France, and a musume in Brazil..!! Soooo.., what about my 1983 Merceds 300SD manual..(smile)..??
 
9VSIO
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:08 am

Hmm, so the stuff that's posted on smartcockpit...violation of legal mumbo-jumbo?
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
On completion if "A" gives those books to "B" who is also an Employee of that Airline but is not Eligible for training until another year,but needed those books to study.Should "A" give the Books to "B" or NOT.

In this scenario there's no problem but the key word here is "who is also an employee..". That's not the original discussion. The original post was about giving, trading, selling, etc of co. manuals. I have a big box of old corp. jet manuals that I got at Flight Safety years ago. I can do what I please with them but now consider my current manuals given to me by my airline and that's a horse of a different color. For one they have already said DO NOT trade, sell or give these manuals to ANY outside party. HAWK you're being a little naive to think that everyone that wants a 767 manual just wants to learn because they may have a future there. Unfortunately, considering how many incidents there have been with pilot's I.D.s, passports and uniforms being stolen, giving away an a/c man to a total stranger is not wise and may be forbidden by your co. It's certainly forbidden here and considering we've gone to CDs there were a lot of manuals being trashed.
 
David L
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:57 pm

OK, I know this thread's a year and a half old but, since it's resurfaced...

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 16):
I can see the case for the 767 manuals, but the Vickers Viscount? No. That is an airplane that was produced in the '40s and '50s and according to A.net, only 3 were known to be in service in 2004, all in Africa.

Exactly.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 16):
I think it would be very interesting to read through those old manuals.

 checkmark  If I'd been in the area at the time, I'd have given the Viscount manual a good home.. and risked the cloak and dagger business of evading capture by The Authorities.  biggrin 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:08 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 31):
a little naive to think that everyone that wants a 767 manual just wants to learn because they may have a future there

Considering the current senario where terrorists are from highly qualified Technical & medical professions,it would pay to be cautious.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
avioniker
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:51 pm

SLACKMAN33

Would you please drop me an email?
It's personal not about this thread.
Thanks

 Smile
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:11 pm

It's all well and good for the US to post the ITAR rules and regs but they only aply to the USA. As the manuals being discussed here fall under Canadian Jurisdiction thaey fall under CTAT rules and regs.
Also it has been found in several court case here in Canada that ITAR is in direct contravention of our Charter of rights and freedoms.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Mtce Training Manuals Free (almost) To A Good Home

Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:11 pm

It's all well and good for the US members to post the ITAR rules and regs but they only aply to the USA. As the manuals being discussed here fall under Canadian Jurisdiction they fall under CTAT rules and regs.
Also it has been found in several recent court cases here in Canada that ITAR is in direct contravention of our Charter of rights and freedoms.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......

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