sudden
Posts: 3934
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:06 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V06LBgfuxgA

What strikes me in regards to this incident is all the errors the pilot made! Airport was closed for jet traffic at the time, which pilot knew as well. Hm....
And why leave the plane with engines still running!?
That can not be SOP anywhere in the world, right?


NTSB report here
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050526X00676&key=1

Comment, point of view?

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
David L
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:38 am

It certainly seemed to be enjoying itself.

Quoting Sudden (Thread starter):
That can not be SOP anywhere in the world, right?

Are there SOPs for such situations? If they thought the aircraft might go straight under, might they be more concerned about getting out?

Edit: Typo.

[Edited 2006-09-02 18:00:22]
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:43 am



Quoting David L (Reply 1):
Are there SOPs for such situations?

I would assume, after a crash/overrun/etc, the checklist would call for fuel cutoff...


Edit: The owner of the jet, the Weibel Corporation, has since replaced the 525 (OY-JET) with a 680, and apparently has a sense of humor. Check out the new registration:


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Photo © Regin Krøigaard






2H4




[Edited 2006-09-02 17:57:12]
Intentionally Left Blank
 
SlamClick
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:59 am

When you are through flying it is generally a good idea to shut down the engines.

Cessna builds a pretty good boat. If both engines had been running he might have made it to a launch ramp somewhere.

I just wish it had been a US airplane and pilot so that we could have revoked the certificates.

Yes, many errors.

Anyone know offhand what country of Registration? OY-JET
Maybe it should have been Oy Vey!
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
David L
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
I would assume, after a crash/overrun/etc, the checklist would call for fuel cutoff.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
When you are through flying it is generally a good idea to shut down the engines.

Well, yes. But I'm just picturing them going through the Pre-sinking Checklist.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
Check out the new registration:

 biggrin 
 
sudden
Posts: 3934
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
When you are through flying it is generally a good idea to shut down the engines.

Although this was not a normal end of the day, I still bet that in any case the power/fuel should be cut off, or am I asking for to much now?
Sure it depends on the situtation but in this case the pilot could have done at least one thing right and cut the fuel.

By the way,
Why does the engine spool up like that by itself?

Aim for the sky
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:55 am

I don't get it. How would the engine start up on its own again? Could the pilot have bumped a switch when he left the cockpit or something?
 
flymatt2bermud
Posts: 551
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
Anyone know offhand what country of Registration? OY-JET

Aircraft with registration beginning with OY are registered in Denmark, Greenland or the Faroe Islands.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
 
TEBGuy
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:58 am

When the engine spooled up the aircraft was empty (the occupants had already been rescued by boat) so, how could the engine spool up on it's own?
Remember, taking off is optional, landing is mandatory.
 
Bobster2
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:14 am

Why did ATC direct them to AIY instead of ACY? Missed it by one letter. 

AIY is closing soon:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/n...late=contentModules/printstory.jsp

View from the air:

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Photo © Robert Friedlander



[Edited 2006-09-02 20:15:06]
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:23 am

Something that I noticed from the NTSB info... [My emphasis]

A review of recorded radar data and air traffic control (ATC) communications revealed the pilot contacted Atlantic City (ACY) Approach Control at 1538, and stated he was inbound to "alpha charlie yankee." The pilot was instructed to descend to an altitude of 2,000 feet, and fly heading 220 degrees.

At 1540, ATC instructed the pilot to "proceed direct Bader, descend and maintain 1,500 feet. Expect visual approach." The pilot read back the instructions, stating, "thank you, direct Bader, descend to 1,500."


Notwithstanding that the pilots were apparently not from here, but was their original intention to fly to ACY or AIY? The NTSB blurb says that they had AIY charts out, but did they do so after ATC cleared them direct Bader, or before?

I'm a little surprised that NTSB didn't at least mention this apparent ACY/AIY confusion.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
sudden
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:47 am

One other thing that made me think,

Did the pilot overshoot the rwy by approx 1000 feet due to that they made final approach on downwind, and should he not have aborted instead cause 1000 feet should be very notisable for the pilot to understand that something was not correct?

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
lehpron
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting TEBguy (Reply 8):
how could the engine spool up on it's own?



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 6):
How would the engine start up on its own again?

Could it have been an electrical short-circuit with the water?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting TEBguy (Reply 8):
When the engine spooled up the aircraft was empty (the occupants had already been rescued by boat) so, how could the engine spool up on it's own?

If the engines had been flamed out by the initial surge/spray when they entered the water, and with fuel cut-offs presumably not having been pulled (and thus ignition and fuel still available) maybe just enough windmilling going on to get them re-lit once the ingested water cleared/drained?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:30 am

Sounded like the engines were off when the guys filming got to the water. Looked like only the right engine re-started. I know nothing of any kind of Citations, but with electrical systems becoming water logged, it might be possible that the engine started on its own through a short. The airplane was making a continuous left doggy paddle, which supports the right engine running.

Maybe it'll be addressed in the final NTSB report. Would love to know what the deal was.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:49 am

Have You All Seen This? Citation Overrun Video? (by ArmitageShanks Sep 2 2006 in Non Aviation)

Thou, I really dont know why its there...
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Bobster2
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:51 am

The Press of Atlantic City ran a story titled "Pilot followed instructions right into the water" based on the NTSB factual report.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/n...inter/story/6013838p-5987287c.html

Note that the reporter called the NTSB and they declined comment.

Since that newspaper article was written, the probable cause was published by the NTSB, and that is the final report. So the issue was never clarified.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
flymatt2bermud
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:58 am

RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):
stated he was inbound to "alpha charlie yankee."

Thanks for making this point. Overseas, especially where English is not the primary language, it is common to identify your waypoints, intersections and airports with its spelling or 3 letter identifier. Makes owning a Garmin 396 (or similar)even more advantageous for use in aircraft which do not have the capability of displaying airport runways.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
 
JHSfan
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:23 pm

Thanks to Sudden for pointing to this rather unique video.  eyepopping 

Good old Weibel Corporation... it's not the only time they messed up things in the aviation world.
A few years ago the companys owner bought a small island, Hesseloe, here in Denmark. The island had an airstrip, that the owner expanded. But by doing this he ignored preservation laws and caused damage to the nature.  banghead 
He had to reestablish the area as it was before.

Weibel has been a bit of an embarrassment.  embarrassed 

Yours in realtime
JHSfan
Look at me, I´m riding high, I´m the airbornmaster of the sky...
 
JHSfan
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:06 pm

Having looked at the video 5 times yesterday, I noticed a fat guy in in blue one of the boats 3:30 into the video.



My mind worked all by it self rather quickly and I decided to look for a certain picture -this one:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Erik Frikke



I do think that we now have two "incidents" with the very same Danish pilot.

  • First he appears as a Senior Chippendale Stripper only wearing... a Citation Jet!
  • Secondly he tries to develop a semi-submersible Citation look-alike ecranoplan.

None of these turned out to be a success in the positive understanding of the word, but at least he got some attention. I'm looking forward to how the Weibel Saga may continue. Big grin

Yours in realtime
JHSfan
Look at me, I´m riding high, I´m the airbornmaster of the sky...
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:36 pm




Quoting JHSfan (Reply 19):
I do think that we now have two "incidents" with the very same Danish pilot.

Unbelievable. You're right. That appears to be the very same guy.

The Citation with the topless fat man is OY-JEV....which is indeed registered to Weibel:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Erik Frikke



Excellent investigative work, JHSfan!




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
ClearedDirect
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:57 pm

RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting JHSfan (Reply 19):
I do think that we now have two "incidents" with the very same Danish pilot.

Holy Cow!
Another mystery solved.
Great work there - I would have never put the two together.
Also interesting to note that the video that we all watched was mentioned in the NTSB report (full narrative version).
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Sudden (Thread starter):
Comment, point of view?

I never would have believed it. A jet floating and still under power. If it would have been in a movie we all would be remarking how corny and imposable it was. Truth sometimes is stranger then fiction.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
and apparently has a sense of humor. Check out the new registration:

Maybe the company hasn't figured out the cause yet.  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Bobster2
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:21 am

If you look at the link I posted earlier it says: "The Danish national newspaper B .T. reported that Danish aviation officials were recommending police charge Larsen for allegedly using a helicopter to buzz some children and their parents who inadvertently wandered onto his property in Denmark."
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Sudden (Reply 5):
By the way,
Why does the engine spool up like that by itself?

When I looked again at the video, in the part where the two boats were together at the nose of the plane you can see the boat occupants tugging on lose wires hanging from the severed nose of the plane. They appear to be either trying to tie off their boats using the wiring or maybe attempting to tow the plane? Something caused them to drop the wires, maybe a spark, and get away from the nose. That is probably what caused the engine to start up.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:06 am

The NTSB report is rather funny. It sounded like one of those DUH! moments Big grin

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=NYC05LA085&rpt=fi
 
JHSfan
Posts: 460
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:28 am

Will the behaviour of Erik larsen in Denmark have any effect on his case in the US? A person hunting people with a helicopter is showing abnormal behaviour.

- JHSfan
Look at me, I´m riding high, I´m the airbornmaster of the sky...
 
KELPkid
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting JHSfan (Reply 27):
Will the behaviour of Erik larsen in Denmark have any effect on his case in the US?

Does he have a case against himself here? I didn't think that the NTSB's judgement on his airmanship (or lack thereof  Wink ) constituted a criminal or civil case...now a civil court may bring up charges based on this incident, but if it happened I'm not aware of it.

Quoting JHSfan (Reply 27):
A person hunting people with a helicopter is showing abnormal behaviour.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
I'm sure if he was a US-licensed pilot, the FAA would have brought up the mental issue when reviewing whether or not he deserved to keep his license.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Bobster2
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:25 am

The newspaper reports of the accident said there were two pilots and two passengers. They gave the names of both pilots. The NTSB reports said there was one pilot and three passengers. Why the discrepancy? The second pilot was a passenger? Or was he a co-pilot who claimed to be only a passenger so his record would not show the accident on it? Sounds fishy to me.

ATC had to know it was a jet going to a field that doesn't permit jets. Why was ATC involvement in the crash not investigated?
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
Bobster2
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 25):
They appear to be either trying to tie off their boats using the wiring or maybe attempting to tow the plane? Something caused them to drop the wires, maybe a spark, and get away from the nose. That is probably what caused the engine to start up.

I found the story on that in the google cache (the original seems to be missing).
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache....htmlr%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

quote:
"My husband and Joe were trying to tie the nose of the plane and all of a sudden the right wing started smoking. And then all of a sudden you just heard the engine revving."
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
iwok
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RE: Citation Becomes A Power Boat

Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:08 pm

All,

airliners.net is cited as being a group of enthusiasts putting the pilot into cult status!

COOL. I guess its true that we at airliners.net have a big impact on the aviation community. Just look how we changed Airbus's mind about not doing a warmed over A350  bigthumbsup 

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...overrun+attracts+internet+fan.html

-iwok

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