EI787
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What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:50 am

Hi!

I was looking at this photo today:


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Photo © Weimeng



In the caption, it says 'Notice the Self Protection System on his body'.

Can anyone tell me what exactly is the self protection system and where it is on this picture?

Thanks in advance,

EI787
 
futureualpilot
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:21 am

I would imagine that it is there as an anti-missile defense system, i.e. drops flares or chaff or something like that, should anybody fire on the airplane.
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:24 am


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ismael Jorda
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Weimeng


Notice the Bulged fairings at the Left Aft.
Is this the Flares anti terror system.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
SlamClick
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
Notice the Bulged fairings at the Left Aft

No I don't.

Can you narrow it down using the actual names of airplane parts or landmarks in the picture?
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EI787
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
Notice the Bulged fairings at the Left Aft.

Is this what you're on about:

http://i3.tinypic.com/2mdl9jr.jpg
 
aeroweanie
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:57 am

What you are looking at is the Elta Flight Guard system. It drops flares if a missile launch is detected.
 
2enginesonly
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:14 am

There seems to be a strange bulge right below the apu exhaust as well.....part of the same system??

Arjan
 
onetogo
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 5):
What you are looking at is the Elta Flight Guard system. It drops flares if a missile launch is detected.

Impressive!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:24 am

I imagine some sort of evasive maneuvers are also in order once the threat indicator beeps.
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Qantas744er
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting 2enginesonly (Reply 6):
There seems to be a strange bulge right below the apu exhaust as well.....part of the same system??

Correct, this is the Infra red that detects the missile, the bulged fairings on the aft are the part wich will release the flare etc. but the bump under the APU is only to detect the missiles.

Cheers Leo
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kaddyuk
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 9):
Correct, this is the Infra red that detects the missile, the bulged fairings on the aft are the part wich will release the flare etc. but the bump under the APU is only to detect the missiles.

Looks like the strobe light to me...
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aeroweanie
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:41 am

Here are the competing American systems for airliner self-protection. Both work by detecting the missile launch and then firing a laser into the homing head to confuse the missile and force it to break lock.

This is the Northrop Grumman Guardian system, which is pod mounted:


This is the BAE Systems JetEye system, which has its boxes internally mounted:


Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
I imagine some sort of evasive maneuvers are also in order once the threat indicator beeps.

With these systems, the pilot is not supposed to maneuver. Keeping the aircraft on a predictable flight path helps the system deal with the missile.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:48 pm

Impressive.Any Close views on the B767 fitted with this.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 11):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
I imagine some sort of evasive maneuvers are also in order once the threat indicator beeps.

With these systems, the pilot is not supposed to maneuver. Keeping the aircraft on a predictable flight path helps the system deal with the missile.

Good info. This is hardly typical of missile evasion but I imagine the expected threat is a rather low tech infrared AA missile so it makes sense.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:46 pm

I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Analog
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
http://www.ifri.org/files/CFE/Flight...'Elta%20Flight%20Guard%20system'
Interesting link
regds

Note the 1/1000 false alarm rate claimed by the manufacturer. This is somewhat scary for a civilian flare-based system. 0.1% of flights is a lot more common than missile launches at airliners. Imagine if every airliner had this... lots of fireballs from the sky.

How does this system prevent setting buildings, brush, etc. on fire (flares @ low altitude = really bad, right?) and killing people in the process? Other systems use lasers, which would only blind people  Wink.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 15):
How does this system prevent setting buildings, brush, etc. on fire (flares @ low altitude = really bad, right?) and killing people in the process? Other systems use lasers, which would only blind people

Presumably the possibility of a flare hitting a building or person is weighed against the advantage of not being hit by a missile. But you have a point.
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lredlefsen
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 11):
With these systems, the pilot is not supposed to maneuver. Keeping the aircraft on a predictable flight path helps the system deal with the missile.

Holy shnikeys -- that would take a *lot* of faith in the system. "Inbound missile detected -- please fly straight and level."

Quoting Analog (Reply 15):
Imagine if every airliner had this... lots of fireballs from the sky.

It would make spotting so much more interesting, wouldn't it? In fact, if you could figure out how to trigger a false positive (given the 1/1000 rate, that doesn't seem too hard to pull off), it could make for some really cool photos...  Wink
 
aeroweanie
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 15):
Note the 1/1000 false alarm rate claimed by the manufacturer. This is somewhat scary for a civilian flare-based system. 0.1% of flights is a lot more common than missile launches at airliners. Imagine if every airliner had this... lots of fireballs from the sky.

They are using a special flare that burns outside the visible spectrum and is gone well before it hits the ground. In fact, its not really even a flare, just wafers of a special material.
 
Analog
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RE: What Is The 'Self Protection System'?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 18):

They are using a special flare that burns outside the visible spectrum and is gone well before it hits the ground. In fact, its not really even a flare, just wafers of a special material.

And if a MANPAD is launched when the AC is rotating? Are the wafers intelligent (timed)?

Clearly the wafers must emit IR (for IR homing missiles)... Why not visible, other than the fact that a visible flare would look bad if it were a false alarm? The probabilities say that virtually all flare launches would be false alarms for a civilian airliner, even for an airline like LY.

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