airtran737
Posts: 3221
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:11 am

I need some help. I am looking for rule/regulations regarding taking a 172 over Lake Michigan. I'm not sure if it is legal to do, but I cant find anything in the F.A.R./AIM that says otherwise. I fried of mine is buying a plane, and he insists in flying across the lake from MKE to MKG to avoid having to go all the way around, and dealing with Class B airspace in Chicago. Let me know if he can do this.
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Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:53 am

Of course he can do it. Why would you think otherwise?
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2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:03 am



It's legal under part 91. I've done it myself, but I wouldn't do it again...particularly in the cold months. There's a window of about 10-15 miles where an engine failure would almost certainly result in a swim. During that 10-15 miles, you tend to hear some mighty strange noises from the engine...  Wink

If I had to regularly fly between those two locations, I'd consider three options:

  • Follow the shoreline around, within gliding distance of land
  • Buy a twin
  • Buy a floatplane and carry survival gear




2H4


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IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:03 am

If u got stones large enough to do it and like 2H4 have done it with gear onboard but won't do it again! Actually CFR Part 91 talks about "gliding distance" and then there is always the 91.509 I think that is the correct paragraph...50 miles off the shore with survival equipment and then when the whistling of the wind gets very quiet.............................................jump   

[Edited 2006-09-19 19:08:19]

[Edited 2006-09-19 19:08:53]
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AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:27 am

I knew of someone who had to do a water landing. It was an interesting conversation to say the least. They had a partial engine failure and they couldn't quite make it to land so they ditched close to the shore line. From what he told me it wasn't as bad as he though it would be, the plane submerged half way on impact but then it bobed up again and they basically just exited and waited for help. It's important to carry at least a life raft and some sort of communication device.
 
redcordes
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:38 am

IIRC, aren't flotation devices required at any time the flght is over 30 min. from shore. So, in this case, probably none would be required.
"The only source of knowledge is experience." A. Einstein "Science w/o religion is lame. Religion w/o science is blind."
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:44 am

It *IS* Legal...you must fly, as per the FAR Part 91, within gliding distance of the shore or with water survival gear on board (i.e. self-inflating life raft). You can either buy the raft from Sporty's (expensive), or there are outfits that will rent you the survival equipment. I had a friend who used to fly a PA-28 regularly between FLL and the Bahamas, and an FBO down in Florida used to rent out the self-inflating life rafts with a lot of other survival goodies in the kit (such as water purification, flare gun, fishing kit, sunscreen lotion, etc.).
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SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
During that 10-15 miles, you tend to hear some mighty strange noises from the engine...

It's called "auto rough" and it is pretty much guaranteed.

I flew a single across the Gulf of Mexico (five hours and forty minutes) when I was young and bulletproof. I'd have to be seriously motivated to do that again.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 4):
I knew of someone who had to do a water landing. It was an interesting conversation to say the least.

I had a conversation with the late Frank Tallman about that once. He and his late partner Paul Mantz used to earn their living crashing airplanes for the movies. Frank said the worst thing he ever did was land a Navion in the bay for a Disney movie. He said he'd swear the thing stopped in about four feet. He had bruises from all the restraint harness. Really unpleasant I guess.

Looks like you could shorten the overwater some by coasting out at the sandspit just north of the Ludington ferry route. Only about 50 miles across there. Might be cheaper to carry an oxygen bottle and cross at about 14000' to increase the glide distance. He could use the flight north to climb - he'll need to!
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
redcordes
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
It *IS* Legal...you must fly, as per the FAR Part 91, within gliding distance of the shore or with water survival gear on board

Could you cite the specific paragraph(s) that state this. I find the FAR's confusing in this area due to differences for aircraft size, type of operation, IFR vs. VFR, etc. Thanks.
"The only source of knowledge is experience." A. Einstein "Science w/o religion is lame. Religion w/o science is blind."
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:46 am

You don't need to have any survival equipment with you. If you read through the FARs, you'll realize that the FAA really doesn't care if you kill yourself, they only care about other people and paying passengers (with a few exceptions).

91.509 only applies to large, multi-turbine, and fractional ownership operating under subpart K. 91.205 only applies if the aircraft is operated for hire. I'm assuming your friend is not flying it for hire, so he could do it with naught but his underwear if he so desired.
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2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Single Engine Over Water Rules

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:55 am




Quoting Ralgha (Reply 9):
he could do it with naught but his underwear if he so desired.

....As our Danish friend so eloquently demonstrates:


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2H4


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