fly707
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Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:24 am

According to Boeing website the price of a Boeing 777F is between ( 232.5 -- 240.0) & a Boeing 777-200 Pax price is between ( 178.0 -- 195.0 ).

Also the same for the 747-800 & 400.
You can check it at :
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/index.html

Why are cargo planes more expensive than pax planes ??

I think cargo planes shouldn't be that expensive & I can't find a reason for that .

Thanks .
Without mistakes we will never learn
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am

Cargo operators have more money. Cargo is very profitable.
 
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Vasu
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:13 am

The cargo loading / handling systems onboard cargo aircraft must be pretty expensive... is it something to do with that?
 
Flyboy14295
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:39 am

Instead of putting in a galley, they have to put in those electric rolling floors for the palletes to move around on. I would think that is more expensive that just putting in chairs. Lets not forget about the 744F's giant hydrolic nose. Those jack have some serious power behind them!
Greetings from New York. "Take It to the limit." -Eagles
 
PanAmerican
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:30 pm

Since you're comparing the 777-200 to the 777F you need to look at the different characteristics:
777-200:

Engines (maximum thrust):
77,000 lb

Maximum Fuel Capacity
31,000 U.S. gal (117,335 L)

Maximum Takeoff Weight
545,000 lbs (247,210 kg)

777F:

Engines (maximum thrust):
110,000 lb (489 kN)

Maximum Fuel Capacity
47,890 U.S. gal (181,280 L)

Maximum Takeoff Weight:
766,000 lb (347,450 kg)
with loading restrictions

That would explain part of why a 777F is more expensive...It needs better reincorcement in structure plus has larger fuel tanks and more powerful engines...
And of course the cargo handling equipment which is probably included in the price whereas a pax version will probably be calculated without the seat costs as these are specific to the airline...

With the 748i vs. the 748F I think that the 748F is longer, thus more material is needed and also naturally it has the more complicated cargo doors and loading mechanisms.

I'd be interested to know if any pax 777s are considered for freighter conversion and how much such a treatment would cost?
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
legoguy
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:21 am

Well if freight aircraft are being sold to cargo companies at a higher price than the passenger aircraft, could they just buy a passenger aircraft and rip out all the seats (maybe sell them)?

EDIT:

Quoting PanAmerican (Reply 4):
That would explain part of why a 777F is more expensive...It needs better reincorcement in structure plus has larger fuel tanks and more powerful engines...
And of course the cargo handling equipment which is probably included in the price whereas a pax version will probably be calculated without the seat costs as these are specific to the airline...

Ahhh sorry I am only reading this now. Makes sense now. So the answer to my question would be NO.

[Edited 2006-09-19 18:22:48]
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PanAmerican
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 5):
Well if freight aircraft are being sold to cargo companies at a higher price than the passenger aircraft, could they just buy a passenger aircraft and rip out all the seats (maybe sell them)?

Well, I'm sure they could and that's what has been done for many years if you look at all the converted pax A300/A310s, DC-10s, MD-11s, B742s etc...

But e.g. a converted pax 777-200(F) would still have a lower MTOW than the designated 777Freighter since I imagine the structure would not be reinforced during a conversion, but I'm not sure if this is actually how it's done...

Maybe we can get someone on here who is involved in the conversion process to comment... but that would probably be a topic for tech/ops  Wink
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
lotsamiles
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:11 am

Typically a converted freighter will end up "on ramp" for about 25-33% of the cost of a new build freighter. That includes purchase of a 12-17 year old airframe, bridge and heavy maintenance and the conversion.

The only folks who can afford new build freighters are usually flying them with high utilization or otherwise very deep pockets (FedEx and UPS).

The interior on a freighter is not cheap but I think it is still less than that of a pax a/c with all the IFE and especially the bus/first seats. For example, the powered cargo floor for a 747 is about $1.5-2.0M.

As the pax interior is BFE (not included in the basic a/c) this is likely the reason for the freighter list price being higher (in addition to the freighter doors being more expensive than standard fuselage sections).

Increasing the weights on a conversion is specific to the type of aircraft. Some can be done thru the OEW with existing packages (usually a "paper change"). Sometimes reinforcements / gear changes can be done but this is usually cost prohibitive on a conversion.

As for the large price difference between the 777-200 and 777F, I believe that is mainly due to the 777F being based on the much higher capability 777-200LR.

Regards,
Lotsamiles
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 5):
could they just buy a passenger aircraft and rip out all the seats (maybe sell them)?

It's not that easy. There is a lot of work involved in converting a pax version to a freighter. It's not just a matter of tearing out the seats and filling it up with cargo instead.

The cabin floor has to be substantially reinforced to handle extra weight.
The motorised floor for the pallets has to be installed.
A side cargo door has to be cut from the fuselage and reinforced.
Main deck cargo fire detection and supression system fitted.
Reinforcement of roof panels to protect cables and hydraulic/pneumatic lines.

Those are just a few, there are more.
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 8):
The motorised floor for the pallets has to be installed.

It doesnt have to be motorised, you can just use rollerball mats however it is quicker if you have PDU's (Power Drive Units).

Also, selection is limited when it comes to freighters... You're limited in choice if you want a brand new freighter. Less supply = higher prices.

Development costs for the freighter are probably higher and with less freighter airframes sold than passenger airframes, the price needs to be higher to recoup the extra cost...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
texfly101
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:39 am

Particularly since things like development costs have to be amortized over the expected run and profits figured on expected production numbers, the more units over a longer period, the lower the cost to the projected numbers of units...freighters are typically not slated to be in production as long, so the costs have to be recovered quicker, therefore a higher cost to each projected unit...add that to the other reasons given in the above posts and you have a higher unit cost. And remember that those costs are "book" costs. I would hazard a guess that the 747F list prices are very reduced to get over the bridge years until the -8 gets up and in production.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:47 pm

I thought Cargo operators pays their Employees better since they have more $  Smile
The Cost difference is probably due to the PDUs & Cargo loading Mechanisms on board & built into the Aircraft.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Lemurs
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:16 pm

The first simple explanation is that the 777F is at it's core a 772LR. The engines alone account for millions of dollars of difference. Those GE90-110B's aren't remotely cheap compared to the 77k thrust engines on the 772A. If you start from that point, you see the price overlap is much more reasonable. That does beg some questions, like why the base price on the 772LR is so much lower than the base price on the 777F, but it's also more expensive on the top end.

I guess the interior appointments makes the most sense there. The top of the 777LR price range probably includes belly tanks+crew rest+full technology interior, while the 777F wouldn't be offered with any of that. (Is there a reason to offer crown rest areas in a freigher like that, instead of using a tiny bit of floor space?
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Tod
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 12):
Is there a reason to offer crown rest areas in a freigher like that, instead of using a tiny bit of floor space?

The 777 overhead crewrests hang too lower to be used on most freighter applications. Because of accessibility issues, the best place for frieghter crewrests is immediately after of the flight deck.

Tod
 
FredT
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:12 am

Assuming you are talking freighters off the line and not cargo conversions:

They have to be structurally reinforced. This redesign costs money. There are usually less aircraft sold in cargo versions, meaning there are fewer aircraft to share the development costs.

Pax furnishings are horrendously expensive, so I don't think the interior is part of it.
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
fly707
Topic Author
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 1):
Cargo is very profitable.

I don't think that cargo is very profitable, how could it be !! Operating costs are very high & cargo carriers are trying to keep a fixed low price.
Without mistakes we will never learn
 
3201
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 1):
Cargo operators have more money.

 checkmark 
Maybe not so much that cargo operators have more money, but each new cargo airframe is worth more to them than a passenger airframe is to a passenger/mixed operator.

Remember that the price of airplanes does not strictly correlate to the cost of developing and building them, but rather to what they are worth, i.e. what they can do.

The higher price of cargo aircraft has a lot less to do with redesign or installation of equipment and a lot more to do with their higher capability. Even in today's lower cargo densities, cargo is denser than passengers and seats, so cargo operations of the same aircraft are often at a higher payload. Theres a reason UPS has 2040's on their B752 instead of 2037's.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting PanAmerican (Reply 4):
With the 748i vs. the 748F I think that the 748F is longer, thus more material is needed and also naturally it has the more complicated cargo doors and loading mechanisms.

Not that relevant to the thread but I believe Boing recently announced the i anf F would be the same length.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Are Cargo Planes More Expensive?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Fly707 (Reply 15):
I don't think that cargo is very profitable, how could it be !! Operating costs are very high & cargo carriers are trying to keep a fixed low price.

Out here Cargo Operators are very Profitable.Unlike Pax Airlines where Lowering of Fares due compitetion & Raising of Salaries due Demand of Pilots & AMEs have reduced the profit margin.Cargo prices have no such pressure.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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