vikkyvik
Topic Author
Posts: 12123
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:19 pm

Hello all.

So BOS is (finally) adding the new runway, 14/32, to the existing 4 runways (5 if you count 15L/33R, which I don't). The runway is planned as a unidirectional (rwy 32) landing runway to be used for smaller aircraft, and is 5,000 feet long.

What I found most interesting when I first saw the proposed runway a year or two ago is that it is not parallel to the runways 15/33 (at least, from what I can see on the airport diagram). Given that airplanes would be approaching runways 32 and 33L (from the end that converges), I was curious as to how landing traffic would flow into the new runway.

As a point of reference, if the difference in headings is 10 degrees, and the runways are about 5000 feet apart, then their approach paths will intersect a little over 5 statute miles from the airport (these figures are not exact, but they are close). This means that the approach paths will be a half-mile apart between 2.5 and 3 miles out.

I'm not currently familiar with any other airports that have runways that are not parallel, but will act as parallel runways for most intents and purposes. Will the aircraft using 14/32 simply have a short(er) final approach?

Thanks guys and girls.

Oh, here's a link to the airport diagram:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0609/00058AD.PDF

(on a side note, I had my first landing that I can remember on BOS's 15R last week on a flight from Europe - pretty cool - takes me right over work and within sight of home)

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
SlamClick
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Thread starter):
their approach paths will intersect a little over 5 statute miles from the airport

Ever smaller corrections! As a general sort of thing, while we have converging approaches, they don't have diverging ones. It is safer and easier to have planes paths cross slow, and on the ground than a few miles out where the window is larger and the difference in speeds is greater. I'm betting that there will be no simultaneous approaches involving these runways.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
vikkyvik
Topic Author
Posts: 12123
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Ever smaller corrections! As a general sort of thing, while we have converging approaches, they don't have diverging ones. It is safer and easier to have planes paths cross slow, and on the ground than a few miles out where the window is larger and the difference in speeds is greater. I'm betting that there will be no simultaneous approaches involving these runways.

That makes some sense to me, which is why I'm a bit confused on how they intend to utilize the new runway.

Is a non-simultaneous approach a staggered approach? I always get different approaches confused.

Thanks...

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 2):
That makes some sense to me, which is why I'm a bit confused on how they intend to utilize the new runway.

There will be no ILS for 32. It will be visual approaches only. This will be very similar to the prefered configuration which is running ILS's into 04R and visuals into 04L. As long as they have visual seperation, they can fly wingtip to wingtip all the way down the final. As for your comment on 15R, BOS only uses 15R about 5% of the time due to noise abatement and traffic flow restrictions.
 
vxg
Posts: 96
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RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:52 am

It can't be more than 10 degrees off between 32 and 33L - that's a very easy correction for aircraft coming in on a visual approach. The majority of the approach can be flown parallel to 33L and then a correction to the left lines you up just fine with 32. That will not be a problem for most aircraft using this runway.

For departures from 14 - same thing - after takeoff the aircraft make a turn to the right to avoid departing aircraft from 15R.

VxG
 
PHLapproach
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:37 am

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:20 am

Im curious if A90 could get away with implementing Converging Runway Display Aid (CRDA) in conjunction with 32 approaches.
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 5):
Im curious if A90 could get away with implementing Converging Runway Display Aid (CRDA) in conjunction with 32 approaches.

No they could not. Nor would they want it. They already tried using it several years ago in an attempt to run simultaneous ILS's to 33L and 27. After about 2 days the controllers realized that using this tool was downright dangerous, and it was promptly done away with. This isnt even applicable in the 33L/32 situation, as there will be no ILS to 32, so it will be all visual approaches with visual seperation with a/c on final for 33L, thus negating the need to stagger the final(s).
 
vikkyvik
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:55 am

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 5):
Im curious if A90 could get away with implementing Converging Runway Display Aid (CRDA) in conjunction with 32 approaches.



Quoting Onetogo (Reply 6):
No they could not. Nor would they want it. They already tried using it several years ago in an attempt to run simultaneous ILS's to 33L and 27. After about 2 days the controllers realized that using this tool was downright dangerous, and it was promptly done away with. This isnt even applicable in the 33L/32 situation, as there will be no ILS to 32, so it will be all visual approaches with visual seperation with a/c on final for 33L, thus negating the need to stagger the final(s).

Could you guys explain the above two quotes to me? As in, what is 1.) A90, and 2.) CRDA?

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 3):
As for your comment on 15R, BOS only uses 15R about 5% of the time due to noise abatement and traffic flow restrictions.

Yep, I'm aware they don't use it all that much for landings, which is why it was cool to finally have one on it.

Thanks...

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
PHLapproach
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:37 am

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 6):
No they could not. Nor would they want it. They already tried using it several years ago in an attempt to run simultaneous ILS's to 33L and 27. After about 2 days the controllers realized that using this tool was downright dangerous, and it was promptly done away with. This isnt even applicable in the 33L/32 situation, as there will be no ILS to 32, so it will be all visual approaches with visual seperation with a/c on final for 33L, thus negating the need to stagger the final(s).

I was thinking it wouldnt be good to use if the runways dont cross. It would be more beneficial for 32/4R if they plan on running that. I know all other facilities that use CRDA have had no problems with compromising safety. It's not a matter of using the technology to a runway with an ILS. As long as you know what the winds are doing and you watch your speeds.
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
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RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 8):
It would be more beneficial for 32/4R if they plan on running that

The winds would never dictate a situation where doing that would be applicable. Besides, BOS is at maximum efficiency when they run 4R/4L and depart 9. As for your comment regarding CRDA, perhaps you could cite some examples (I dont doubt you -- I just want to know where they use it). The information I got regarding the short term use of CRDA at BOS and its eventual termination was directly from an A90 controller at the facility.

For those who dont know what CRDA is, it essentially draws a ghost on final for both runways, so even though there isnt a plane there, you know what kind of seperation you will need since there are aircraft landing intersecting runways. Needless to say, the drawing of "ghost aircraft" on the radar screen seems slightly moronic, atleast thats what the A90 controllers thought when they used it for a mere 2 days before saying 'no more'.
 
PHLapproach
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:37 am

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 9):
The winds would never dictate a situation where doing that would be applicable.

Well sure it would, if your relief says "winds strong out of the southeast. Give yourself an extra 2 miles" Then you better give yourself room following that ghost.

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 9):
perhaps you could cite some examples

I only know of three of the top of my head, PHL, YYZ and T75

And to further show CRDA. A photo of ghost from aircraft on the 27R final depicted on the 35 final. (The yellow limited datablocks only displaying speeds are the ghost)



[Edited 2006-09-24 16:40:24]
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 10):
"winds strong out of the southeast. Give yourself an extra 2 miles"

If winds are out of the southest, why on earth would you land 33L/34?
 
PHLapproach
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:37 am

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 11):
If winds are out of the southest, why on earth would you land 33L/34?

Sometimes a facility may have to bite the bullet to keep that AAR up.
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 12):

Sometimes a facility may have to bite the bullet to keep that AAR up.

Heh. Don't think so.
 
PHLapproach
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:37 am

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:02 pm

Yea ok, thats why I've seen Philly and Phoenix run west with winds 080 at 12... All hail Mike the god of ATC, hail, hail.
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: BOS Runway 14/32 Approach

Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 14):
All hail Mike the god of ATC, hail, hail.

You've got it, my man! Thanks!!

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