747hogg
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Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:19 am

I have always wondered about the streaks and lines of the grey and black stuff on the wings of big jets, even after coming out of one hell of a rain storm, they are still there. Is this lubracation being blown onto the wings from the gear and motor sections of the flaps? I have flown some jets that were totally clean, but most look really dirty from the pax point of view. How hard is that stuff to get off?
 
charlienorth
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:33 am

After an aircraft exits a check where "grease cards"(work orders)were accomplished the excess grease comes out of the serviced areas,whether flight controls or landing gear,it gets quite difficult to clean off,in non technical terms the best way to describe it is "gooey"
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:22 pm

Lubrication is carried out thru Fittings & Applied by hand.During mvmt of the Surface lubricated,excess Grease is thrown around.This is cleaned at Layover checks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
redflyer
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 1):
After an aircraft exits a check where "grease cards"(work orders)were accomplished the excess grease comes out of the serviced areas,whether flight controls or landing gear,it gets quite difficult to clean off,in non technical terms the best way to describe it is "gooey"



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
Lubrication is carried out thru Fittings & Applied by hand.During mvmt of the Surface lubricated,excess Grease is thrown around.This is cleaned at Layover checks.
regds
MEL

Just out of curiosity: if it's only lubricant (grease, gooey, etc.), why is it only on the wings and never on other surfaces? I would imagine that other moving parts also get the lubricants but you never see the streaks anywhere else except on the wings.

See this pic of a WN aircraft on the tarmac. Only the wings have the streaks. I suspect its actually hydraulic fluid.

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greasespot
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:25 pm

The grey and black streaks is leaking skydrol. It is actually in the paint now and that is why it does not wash away.
If you look where the streaks are you will find a flap/slat/ or spoiler actuator in most cases.

gs
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Buzz
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:20 pm

Hi 747Hogg, Buzz here. About 20 years ago we had a crew of aircraft polishers who would work the 727 while we did a B check on that airplane.
They could get most of the mess (skydrol, oil grime) with stoddard solvent (PSD60, Varsol) on a mop. After the solvent scrub had dried, they would apply wax to the airplane.

It seemed to work well.
g'day
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:51 am

Does the de-icing fluid stain the plane?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
charlienorth
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
Does the de-icing fluid stain the plane?

No,it does seep through panels and you ere often reminded of the good time of winter when you open these panels,the odor of maple syrup..
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 7):
,it does seep through panels and you ere often reminded of the good time of winter when you open these panels,the odor of maple syrup..

It does dry to them and look like peeling paint... Although not a stain, if you dont know what you're looking at, it can look like a skydrol leak...

Some of the dirt streaks you see on aircraft are exactly that, dirt. Such as from rivet heads (a good indication of corrosion). From panels (the B747 Pylons come to mind) of black rubber sealant between them. Leaking fuel tanks, skydrol stains etc etc...

Also, the reason dirt doesnt get blown away is due to the viscosity of the air and the boundary layer, Grease will wipe away easily, the dirt can be removed with a foaming cleaner (Such as Amberclens).
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
fr8mech
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 4):
If you look where the streaks are you will find a flap/slat/ or spoiler actuator in most cases

Which is also where many of the grease fittings are.

As you may have guessed from the posts, the stains can be a mixture of products. Grease is the most common. The dirt that adheres to the grease really makes it show up, though the color of the grease, (brown, black or green) shows up nicely against a wing and/or control surface.

Hydraulic leaks also cause streaking. All actuators give up some minuscule amount of fluid during actuation. This fluid may get caught in the airstream and dirty things up somewhat.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
greasespot
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 9):
Which is also where many of the grease fittings are.

Yes that is true. But It does not take long to recognize the difference between a grease trail and a skydrol trail. The black long streaks tend to be skydrol as no matter how much scrubbing you cannot make it go away. The skydrol softens the paint and gets embedded. However a grease trail you can wash off.

I will bet a lick of the wing on that B737 that the long black streak on the port wing near the tip is skydrol.  wink 

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Lemurs
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 10):
I will bet a lick of the wing on that B737 that the long black streak on the port wing near the tip is skydrol.

One of my long-standing rules in life, that I never have had the chance to use before now, is: "Never make a bet about grease stains with a man who name suggests intimacy with grease." Thank you for letting me use the rule to it's fullest potential.
 Smile
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
nonfirm
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
Just out of curiosity: if it's only lubricant (grease, gooey, etc.), why is it only on the wings and never on other surfaces? I would imagine that other moving parts also get the lubricants but you never see the streaks anywhere else except on the wings.

See this pic of a WN aircraft on the tarmac. Only the wings have the streaks. I suspect its actually hydraulic fluid.

There is also streaks around the belly of the a/c and sometimes you can get grease spot on the aft lower fuselage from excess grease that has come off the from the wing and gear lubes as well. airplane 
 
BOE773
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:02 am

A dirty aircraft is an eyesore and very difficult to clean especially if the paint has oxodized since the grease/skydrol 'soaks' into the paint. During walk-around I find it interesting to see how the airflow acts over surfaces by the dirty tail-off patterns from the grime especially under the fuselage belly behind the wheel wells. Grime streaks do tell a story.
 
BOE773
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 10):
will bet a lick of the wing on that B737 that the long black streak on the port wing near the tip is skydrol.

Time to snag/squawk that #8 slat actuator there on that WN craft, Greasespot.
 
greasespot
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 11):
"Never make a bet about grease stains with a man who name suggests intimacy with grease

Ahem.....Man  irked   wink 

Oh glad i can be of service...  Smile

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 14):
Time to snag/squawk that #8 slat actuator there on that WN craft, Greasespot.

Nah a bleeding actuators is normal..There is actually a MM limit as to how fast it drips as to when it needs to be pulled..

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 11):
Quoting Greasespot (Reply 10):
I will bet a lick of the wing on that B737 that the long black streak on the port wing near the tip is skydrol.

One of my long-standing rules in life, that I never have had the chance to use before now, is: "Never make a bet about grease stains with a man who name suggests intimacy with grease." Thank you for letting me use the rule to it's fullest potential.

Nice try but as I learned a long time a go, Greasespot is actually Ms. Spot. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BOE773
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 15):
Nah a bleeding actuators is normal..There is actually a MM limit as to how fast it drips as to when it needs to be pulled..

GS

What's the In-Service DPM for a 737 slat actuator, GS ?
That WN actuator piston has stroked too many times across it's 'O' ring
 wink 
 
Lemurs
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 15):
Ahem.....Man

Okay, I know you have no reason to believe me, but I swear as I was typing that out, I thought to myself: "Watch...Greasespot is going to be a woman." I even went back and changed it, and then changed it back figuring the odds were low, and that playing the pronoun game would ruin the oomph of the joke. I never assume gender on the Internet, and whenever I do, in either direction, I am wrong. (This comes from having a typically female name as a guy...I am on the wrong end of gender assumptions WAY too often.) I need to stick with my instincts here, and listen when my brain tells me I am going to regret something.  Smile

(Notice how nowhere in my mental evaluation did "Click on the name and find out" get considered...I am not always running at 100% here folks.)

My apoligies, Ms. Greasespot!
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:42 pm

Modern political correctness practices are obviously well-ingrained with me, since the most obvious alternative phrasing I can think of is;

"Never make a bet about grease stains with a person whose name suggests intimacy with grease."

Incidentally, I like it. I'm going to add it to the list:

Never eat at a place called "Ma's".
Never play poker with a man called "Doc".
Never buy version 1.0 of anything.
Never sleep with someone who has more troubles than you do.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
why is it only on the wings and never on other surfaces?

The TE Flaps,LE slats & Spoilers are located there.Moving surfaces do throw excess lubricants around.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BOE773
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:51 am

Allowable 'in-service' Drops Per Minute (DPM); GS ?

So when I do my walk-around, I can count the drops on the concrete  wink 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 21):
So when I do my walk-around, I can count the drops on the concrete

Not if its raining
The drops are counted as they drop & not after they hit the surface.  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
greasespot
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:16 am

It has been a while since i turned a wrench. I will see if I can find it tomorrow the limit.

GS

PS i have been called man, dude,hey guy....for so long on here i iardley notice it. Come from working in a male dominated field....
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
The drops are counted as they drop & not after they hit the surface

Leaks come in buckets... not drips...  Wink
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
nonfirm
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:44 am

Here are some leak limits for the 737-400.


PART---- NORMAL---- MAX



Tube Connections---- None---- None

Static Seals---- 1 per 10 min---- 10 drops per min


Eng Driven Pump---- 30 drops per min---- 60 per min

Electric Motor Driven---- 10 to 20---- 20 to 30

PTU---- 10 per min---- 20 per min

Other Dynamic Seals (stopped)---- 1 drip per 10 mins---- 30 drops per min

Flap Act---- 15 per min---- 30 per min


Other Dynamic Seals (while moved)---- 1 per cycle---- 1 per cycle

 airplane 
 
BOE773
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting Nonfirm (Reply 25):

Good info there, Nonfirm

Thanks.
 
greasespot
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:05 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 23):
has been a while since i turned a wrench. I will see if I can find it tomorrow the limit.

Good someone else posted it. We only have the MM on tape format here and I hate using them.  Smile

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
BOE773
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 27):

MM on tape format here and I hate using them.

Can't be that tough to teach an oler dawg new tricks, Greasespot, eh?
 smile 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 24):
Leaks come in buckets... not drips

If it leaked buckets its AOG  Smile

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 27):
We only have the MM on tape format here and I hate using them

We have luckily upgraded to CD Roms holding data in PDF format & MBF access.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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jetmech
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 9):
Hydraulic leaks also cause streaking



Quoting Nonfirm (Reply 12):
There is also streaks around the belly of the a/c

The dirty brown streak left by tea and coffee poured down the galley drains and the tenacious ability of this waste to adhere in a sticky mess to the bottom of the fuselage despite the onslaught of 850 km/h winds never ceases to amaze me!


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Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 24):
Leaks come in buckets... not drips...

A small bucket is typical of the volume required of a vessel to catch the dripping MJII that leaks out of an old RB211-524B attached to a B742 freighter over a 2 hour transit check  bigthumbsup 
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 8):
It does dry to them and look like peeling paint... Although not a stain, if you dont know what you're looking at, it can look like a skydrol leak...

Just taste it! Deicing fluid tastes sweet, like sugar water, skydrol burns on the tongue.  tongue 

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 13):
A dirty aircraft is an eyesore and very difficult to clean especially if the paint has oxodized since the grease/skydrol 'soaks' into the paint. During walk-around I find it interesting to see how the airflow acts over surfaces by the dirty tail-off patterns from the grime especially under the fuselage belly behind the wheel wells. Grime streaks do tell a story

Many airlines today consider washing aircraft, especially where the passengers can't see it or if they are not carrying passengers (e.g. freighters) too expensive, even if it makes it harder for us to identify new leaks (is that mess accumulated skydrol from a minuscule leak over the last two years or is it a relatively fresh big leak?)

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 23):
PS i have been called man, dude,hey guy....for so long on here i iardley notice it. Come from working in a male dominated field....

We need more of you in the profession!  Smile

Quoting JetMech (Reply 30):
The dirty brown streak left by tea and coffee poured down the galley drains and the tenacious ability of this waste to adhere in a sticky mess to the bottom of the fuselage despite the onslaught of 850 km/h winds never ceases to amaze me!

Remeber the dirt behind the outflow valves when they still permitted smoking on board? Or how the insulation and the cabin interior looked like on overhaul?
 yuck   vomit 

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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jetmech
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Remeber the dirt behind the outflow valves when they still permitted smoking on board? Or how the insulation and the cabin interior looked like on overhaul?

G'day MD11Engineer . Luckily, I was spared such an experience, as no smoking bans were just being set into place with my first employer when I commenced my apprenticeship. I certainly heard about these outflow valve nicotine stains from the older engineers.

That being said, I do remember a transit stop I had in BKK (Don Muang) on my way from SYD to LHR. I happened to walk past the smoking rooms and was absolutely disgusted! These rooms had large windows which where almost completely opaque with a dark brown tint due to all the nicotine and tar!

I also remember doing a transit check recently on one of our third party customer airlines. This airline still permits the flight crew to smoke. I walked into the cockpit to hand over the fuel dockets and was instantly rendered an upper cut punch to the bottom of my jaw by a thick pall of smoke. This smoke was so thick I could carve my name in it. Whatever that Captain was smoking it STANK!

[Edited 2006-10-06 17:23:58]
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting JetMech (Reply 32):
G'day MD11Engineer . Luckily, I was spared such an experience, as no smoking bans were just being set into place with my first employer when I commenced my apprenticeship

I remember having had to dismantle and clean PSU's which were removed during a D-check together with another apprentice during my apprenticeship days (before the No Smoking rules were introduced). The PSU's came into the overhaul shop in a dark tan colour, we had to use a solvent to get the tar off. The oxygen masks inside were so dirty (normally clear plastic, now totally brown) we had to replace them all. We smelt like an ashtray when we were finished.   

Jan

[Edited 2006-10-06 17:31:35]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting JetMech (Reply 32):
I also remember doing a transit check recently on one of our third party customer airlines. This airline still permits the flight crew to smoke

What was their Justification for that.
Yeah the Nicotine stains on the vents were prominent.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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jetmech
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
What was their Justification for that.

I don't know if the airline in question actually permitted smoking, but that didn't stop the Captain from lighting up. I think that the country this airline originates from has a somewhat accepted and widespread culture of smoking.
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
Lemurs
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Just taste it! Deicing fluid tastes sweet, like sugar water, skydrol burns on the tongue

That's what makes antifreeze the suicide poison of choice for people in the know who want to make sure it gets done right. You can mix it into a cocktail and have it taste fantastic, just before your internal organs shut down and you die. A lot better than most of the other poisons available to you.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
andz
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Here's a nice clean wing....
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greasespot
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
We need more of you in the profession!

Thanks

Yeah If i never taste Skydrol again that will not be a bad thing........I guess i could just rub it in my eye in the future... wink 

I was fortunate and smoking was never allowed when i wrenched.......  eek 

GS  boggled   boggled 
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting JetMech (Reply 35):
I think that the country this airline originates from has a somewhat accepted and widespread culture of smoking.

How about Freighters is smoking permitted on them.Out here its not.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 36):
That's what makes antifreeze the suicide poison of choice for people

And that's the same reason why any glycol product should be locked away from children and should never be decanted into a container other than that which it came in.

Worse is the stuff designed for alumin[i]um engines - it's bright orange and looks like Tango, (or orange Gatorade, I suppose, for the Americans here).

I don't have any kids myself, but when draining any of my cars I am careful about spills since I have a cat. I doubt he'd drink much of it, but I don't know what the lethal dose is for him and I'd rather not risk it. He's a right misery when he's ill.

That's a point - when de-icing has happened on the ramp, do you tend to find more dead wildlife?
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
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jetmech
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 39):
How about Freighters is smoking permitted on them.Out here its not.

Not on the freighters that I work on.
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 41):
Not on the freighters that I work on.

Anyone aware of any Officially permitted smoking in any Carriers.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 40):
That's a point - when de-icing has happened on the ramp, do you tend to find more dead wildlife?

Actually we don't use diethylglycol anymore because of enviromental reasons. Most deicing fluids afaik use propylglycol, which is much less poisonous.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:08 pm

Thanks Jan - I didn't realise that it wasn't the same.

It's just occurred to me that deicing must be quite an expensive task. Doubt the airlines pay anything like what I do at the garage, (notwithstanding the fact it's not quite the same stuff), but it can't be cheap.

What sort of concentration of glycol is used? 50-50 with water?
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HAWK21M
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RE: Grime And Grease On Control Areas.

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:20 am

Amazing out here DeIcing is almost non Existing.  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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