monteycarlos
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What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:18 pm

Hey everyone,

I was just hoping someone would be able to explain the lump on the upper aft fuselage of this Virgin Blue 737-700.

It looks to be some kind of antenna or communications device but it is quite large, and I wouldn't think that a domestic 737 would need something like this?

Please see the image below.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/Monteycarlos/IMG_2012.jpg

Thanks,

Monteycarlos
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Vasu
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:23 pm

Isn't it the new LiveTV receiver?

... looks horrible!!!
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:25 pm

I believe thats the AC which has had the liveTV fitted recently in the states
Thanks
Alex
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ANCFlyer
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:30 pm

You can see similar "Lump" on this jetBlue A320 . . .


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monteycarlos
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:31 pm

Are you serious? That thing is massive... Doesn't that cause a large increase in drag? I knew about the LiveTV thing but I didn't know the equipment was that big.

As I said, hardly seems worth it for 737's running domestic everyday.
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CYatUK
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 4):
Doesn't that cause a large increase in drag?

Definitely, but it seems that the extra passengers choosing to fly with them because of the live TV thing bring enough cash to cover the extra fuel cost.
CY@Uk
 
Rj111
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:43 pm

Isn't there anywhere else on the plane they could fit it, or does it need to be exposed to recieve the signal? It must incur a fair bit of drag.
 
leelaw
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:46 pm

It's similar, but somewhat bulkier than similar antennas fitted on B6 and F9 aircraft.





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monteycarlos
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:51 pm

It seems much bulkier... It could be the red paint, and the angle. Its too bad I am not a better photographer because I would have liked to have got a closer shot to show the sheer size of it.

I would certainly hope that it was worth the money because it is not only hideous, but impractical.

For all those Australians, it better get more than just Channel 7, 9 and 10!
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ANCFlyer
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:56 pm

Concur it looks bulkier - but remember, we're looking at a closer shot on the 737-700, further that -700 is a shorter and (albeit marginally) narrower fuselage.

Could be angle, could be sunlight, could be a bad photo  duck  Just kidding Monteycarlos . . .  wink 

It could be two entirely different systems, one just happens to be larger than the other . . .
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monteycarlos
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Just kidding Monteycarlos . . .

Hahaha I am not kidding myself. Its a hunk of s**t! It was the antenna thing I was after.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
It could be two entirely different systems, one just happens to be larger than the other . . .

What does the system consist of? Is it an antenna array or is it some kind of receiver dish?
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aussie_
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:24 pm

Yes it is the LiveTV receiver that is currently fitted to a single 737-700 (VH-VBO). I was lucky enough to be on that aircraft just yesterday flying Canberra to Adelaide!

The 'lump' IS bigger - they installed the same receiver as Jet Blue then discovered that the satellite signal and coverage in Australia was different and required a larger receiver, hence a much bigger lump. I wonder what the drag statistics are!

Interestingly enough, on my flight, they offer the system for about 10-15mins as a free trial before you need to swipe your credit card (A$6 per flight), but the entire time of the free trial it said "looking for home transponder", suggesting it could not pick up a signal... I wonder how often they have that problem! Certainly didn't inspire me to cough up the $$ to have it for the rest of the flight!
 
monteycarlos
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:41 pm

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/Monteycarlos/IMG_2014.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/Monteycarlos/IMG_2013.jpg

Here are some more shots of it...

If the dish is bigger now, and it still can't get a signal what will this mean for the future of LiveTV in Australia?
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Cessna057
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:21 pm

Why didn't they make the live TV thing more like an ADF reciever or something?
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jamesjimlb
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:31 pm

i think delta song had it.
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srbmod
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:35 pm

If that hump on that plane gets any bigger, they could use it as an AWACS a/c......

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 10):

What does the system consist of? Is it an antenna array or is it some kind of receiver dish?

It's a receiver dish. There's a video on LiveTV's website that shows them installing the system on a B6 A320.

http://www.livetvifs.com/media/install.wmv

The LiveTV receiver is pretty obvious on any a/c the system is installed on; on the other hand, the antenna that is used to receive XM Satellite radio is not too big. It's very close in size to the home antennas both XM and Sirius have for most of their units.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting JamesJimlb (Reply 14):
i think delta song had it.

Yeah they did and so does the converted Delta 757-200's.


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Korean Air and Lufthansa have two similar humps for the internet I believe.


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jepstein
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:44 am

Are the TV's still installed and working on the ex Song planes?
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Jepstein (Reply 17):

Yes.
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aeroweanie
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:00 am

The bump is a High-Gain LiveTV radome. As Australia is quite a distance from the equator, it is harder to "see" the LiveTV satellites. To get a better "look" angle, the antenna needs to be rotated to a higher angle, hence the higher radome (actually, there are two antennas side-by-side in the dome). Connexion by Boeing ran into the same problem.

The JetBlue and Frontier domes are used closer to the equator and don't need to get the more extreme "look" angles, and hence are smaller.

I helped certify both installations...
 
BandA
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 19):
The bump is a High-Gain LiveTV radome. As Australia is quite a distance from the equator, it is harder to "see" the LiveTV satellites. To get a better "look" angle, the antenna needs to be rotated to a higher angle, hence the higher radome (actually, there are two antennas side-by-side in the dome). Connexion by Boeing ran into the same problem.

The JetBlue and Frontier domes are used closer to the equator and don't need to get the more extreme "look" angles, and hence are smaller.

I helped certify both installations...

very interesting...

shame that connexion by boeing is to be discontinued.

is there a site that lists carriers with LiveTV (domestic US as well as International) and specifically which aircraft?
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slashd0t
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:24 am


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Westjet's LIVE TV setup
/.
 
Boston92
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Jepstein (Reply 17):
Are the TV's still installed and working on the ex Song planes?

Yes, Delta is working on getting the system on all a/c doing flights over 1750nm, not just the ex song crafts.
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Vimanav
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 19):
I helped certify both installations...

You are probably best qualified to answer my question: I have heard that the entire system for live TV weighs close to 2 tons. Is that correct?

rgds//Vimanav
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upstatedave
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:33 am

It might also be worth noting that Delta's live television is not supplied by LiveTV and uses the DishNetwork rather than DirecTV as on B6, F9.

[Edited 2006-10-01 23:33:59]
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Goodbye
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:16 am

I was with my friend spotting at BNE a couple of weeks ago, and some woman told us that a DJ 737 fitted with the big hump would be arriving on its delivery flight while we were there. We waited and waited, and doubted her more and more (she was some woman in a van with two small children, what would she know!), in the end we left, and that night I saw on the Sydney Airport forums that this aircraft landed about 5 minutes after we left!

Kicking myself! We could have had the first photos of this plane in Australia!!
 
srbmod
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting BandA (Reply 21):

is there a site that lists carriers with LiveTV (domestic US as well as International) and specifically which aircraft?

From LiveTV's website:

Frontier
JetBlue
WestJet
Virgin Blue

AirTran (along with JetBlue) are customers for their XM Satellite Radio product.

They don't list a/c types though.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 24):
You are probably best qualified to answer my question: I have heard that the entire system for live TV weighs close to 2 tons. Is that correct?

I only did aerodynamics work on them, so I don't know. That does sound like a lot.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 27):
Frontier
JetBlue
WestJet
Virgin Blue

Frontier has LT on A319s (and A320s?). JetBlue has LT on A320s. WestJet has LT on 737-700s. Virgin Blue has HGLT on 737-700s and -800s.
 
CO738
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:28 am

YOUR ALL WRONG!! its a giant pimple  Smile
If only you could install an air horn on a plane...
 
leftwing
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:01 am

Hope the Russians dont mistake it for a real AWAC and shoot it down
 
YUAMB
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:15 am

the other day i saw an ad for foxtel showing the live tv (foxtel is what is shown on the tvs on the virgin blue flight)

they said it weighs half a tonne.
thats a fairly decent weight to carry. with the cost of installation, extra weight and fuel drag, they are going to need a fair few people paying to watch it on each flight
 
soon7x7
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:33 pm

That is the TV Antenna/Receiver housing.
 
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Goodbye
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting Soon7x7 (Reply 32):
That is the TV Antenna/Receiver housing.

We have ascertained that in the previous 31 posts above yours  Smile
 
antares
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:53 pm

Aeroweanie,

Australia is actually much closer to the equator than the US or Canada, Basic geography. Look at a globe. Those horizontal lines with numbers are latitude. Sydney is about as close to the equator as southern California or Florida, and anything north of Sydney even closer.

The truth is out there, and it must be different.

Antares
 
lredlefsen
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:28 pm

I wonder if this isn't an opportunity for Boeing to *uniquely* differentiate the 787 against all conventional metal-bodied competitors?

My understanding is that the 787 fuselage uses a metal mesh embedded in the CFRP fuselage for lightning strike protection. With this mesh, the CFRP fuselage is opaque to RF -- without the mesh, CFRP is transparent to RF. (Right?)

If Boeing could engineer an "RF transparent" area into the fuselage -- maybe 1-2 square meters -- and if there's room in the "crown space" to place an antenna (and possibly all the other related equipment), they could position the 787 as being even more fuel efficient if live TV is considered "standard equipment" -- all the conventional metal-bodied planes incur the cost of the extra drag from the "bolt-on TV wart"...

Too bad they just pulled the plug on Connexion -- this would be yet another nice reason to get the 787, kinda like cars that come with XM/Sirius satellite receivers and/or iPod adapters...
 
boacvc10
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 34):
The truth is out there, and it must be different.

If a radome is bigger than "usual", and I don't really know how to define "usual" IMHO, it could be using lower microwave frequences such as 4-6 GHz (C-band) compared to higher frequencies such as 12-14 GHz (Ku-band) which is common use in many residential receivers in the US. Most of the world uses Ku/Ka if the environmental conditions to the satellite are mostly dry, or the satellite puts enough power output to break through rain and cloud interference. For most of the equatorial regions, Ku/Ka band service will fail in many instances (cloud, dust, band fading, velocity changes) and C-band service will be more preferable as it is much less prone to signal drop outs etc.

Most of the maritime antennas on ships are C-band, but mixed C- and Ku- band installations do exist. The C-band radomes are huge just due to the laws of physics, otherwise all the other factors remain the same.

If I'm right, do I get a cookie  Confused
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antares
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:34 pm

BOACVC10,

My cookie jar and I are a long way apart at the moment, but anyone who remembers the VC10 deserves extra dessert.

Antares

PS And thanks for the informed explanation as well.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:42 pm

What about the fact that Australia uses the PAL system for TV reception and thus has more dots to make up the same picture? Would this perhaps explain a difference when compared with the NTFS system used in North America and Japan?
 
jbguller
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:00 pm

I'm flying YSSY-YPPH later this year aboard DJ for the Red Bull Air Race - my craft better have one of these things installed, or else it's gonna be a long (albeit comfortable) 737 flight!!
 
pilotdude09
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:32 pm

I was watching "Select" on foxtel which explains about new features etc, and basically there was a 5 min clip of Live TV and it was really interesting and it doenst effect the aircraft that much from memory the pilot said you wouldnt notice it from flying a normal plane. It explained exactly how it worked etc.
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aeroweanie
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 34):
Australia is actually much closer to the equator than the US or Canada, Basic geography. Look at a globe. Those horizontal lines with numbers are latitude. Sydney is about as close to the equator as southern California or Florida, and anything north of Sydney even closer.

I'm going on what I was told - the satellites are hard to see from Australia, hence the need for more antenna "tilt".

Quoting Lredlefsen (Reply 35):
I wonder if this isn't an opportunity for Boeing to *uniquely* differentiate the 787 against all conventional metal-bodied competitors?

I'm told that the 787 will have a CBB dome built in from day one, though its not shown in any of the illustrations released so far. What goes inside the dome will be the airline's choice.
 
lredlefsen
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 41):
I'm told that the 787 will have a CBB dome built in from day one, though its not shown in any of the illustrations released so far. What goes inside the dome will be the airline's choice.

Oh -- I guess I was hoping that they could do without a dome altogether, getting them better aerodynamics.
 
blue787
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 8):
it better get more than just Channel 7, 9 and 10!

Could be SBS.or Fox.
 
nonfirm
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:39 pm

That would be for TVairplane 
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
You can see similar "Lump" on this jetBlue A320

I wonder if it is more noticable because of the paint scheme. It seems that because Virgin Blue has Red, it draws more attention than a white scheme like on B6, DL or Westjet

Just me .02
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:50 am

I do believe Captain Click once stated that while the dome does add drag, it also adds lift for some reason. So it's a wash.

Apologies if Captain Click never said that or if I'm just plain wrong.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
monteycarlos
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 44):
I wonder if it is more noticable because of the paint scheme. It seems that because Virgin Blue has Red, it draws more attention than a white scheme like on B6, DL or Westjet

I was wondering that too... Maybe the red just makes it look a little bigger.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 45):
I do believe Captain Click once stated that while the dome does add drag, it also adds lift for some reason. So it's a wash.

Really? How would that device add lift? Is the pressure differential over that part of the fuselage really affected that much by the hump?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
aeroweanie
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:58 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 45):
I do believe Captain Click once stated that while the dome does add drag, it also adds lift for some reason. So it's a wash.

The curvature of the dome creates regions of low pressure, which sums up to produce a net upwards force on the dome. The dome also does produce drag. Calculating how much lift and how much drag is part of what I did for the certification effort.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:18 am

Is the Added Weight & Drag worth it.
regds
MEL
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Tod
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RE: What Is This Lump On The 737?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 15):
There's a video on LiveTV's website that shows them installing the system on a B6 A320.

What they chose not to mention in the video was that the aircraft installation and major components components such as the radome, rack, etc. were designed and built by Flight Structures of Marysville, Washington.

Tod

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