Jawed
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Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:26 am

How common are fully automatic autopilot-landings on commercial passenger flights?

If they are not common, why do pilots perform manual landings? Is it for fun and practice, or is it because they are actually better than the autopilot?

In a fully automatic autopilot landing, can the computer perform advanced crosswind techniques such as crabbing etc?

A friend once told me that he was on a 777 flight where the pilot announced after landing (in zero visibility) that the passengers could thank the computer for the landing because it would have been impossible to do manually. Does that sound right?

And finally: in an autopilot landing, is it really as simple as pushing a button or do the pilots still have to do a bunch of work?
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting Jawed (Thread starter):
A friend once told me that he was on a 777 flight where the pilot announced after landing (in zero visibility) that the passengers could thank the computer for the landing because it would have been impossible to do manually. Does that sound right?

Yes, that sounds correct.

Autolands are not done very often. They can be made in good and bad weather but they are usually carried out when RVR (Runway Visual Range) is low.

A CAT I ILS approach requires an Touchdown Zone RVR of more than 550m and a DH (decision height) of no less than 200`
A CAT II ILS approach lowers the minimums to 300m and 100`.
A CAT IIIa ILS approach lowers them to 200m and 50`.
A CAT IIIb ILS approach has RVR down to 75m and no DH.
There is also a CAT IIIc appraoch, but I'm not well up on those as they are very uncommon.

There are also limitations on mid-point and end-point RVR's depending on other factors.

They required minimum RVR must be attained before commencing an approach. On reaching DH, the pilots must be able to see sufficient visual references in order to continue to land, or a go-around is initiated.
On a CAT I or II approach, it is possible to disconnect the autopilot and land manually, or continue with the autoland.
On CAT III approaches the autoland is carried out. At the point of DH, there is very little time left till touchdown, so it is advisable to let the autopilot continue rather than destabilize by disconnecting.
When there is no DH, there is no requirement to have visual contact with the runway before landing, therefore it would be impossible to land manually.
The system can also provide steering and guidance on the rollout along the runway after landing, meaning the autopilot is disconnected only when at taxi speed and turning off the runway.

There are many limitatons on these approaches.
The aircraft must be certified.
The crew must be trained and certified
The runway ILS must be off a certain standard.
The airfield must have low vis operations in force.
etc etc.

Quoting Jawed (Thread starter):
In a fully automatic autopilot landing, can the computer perform advanced crosswind techniques such as crabbing etc?

Some aircraft will land with the crab in place, others that have a rudder channel to the autopilot can remove the crab on touchdown.

Quoting Jawed (Thread starter):
And finally: in an autopilot landing, is it really as simple as pushing a button or do the pilots still have to do a bunch of work?

Never as simple as pushing a button! A low vis autoland is a serious procedure. The autopilot/autothrust must be monitored closely for faults. The aircraft has to be configured with flaps/gear/speeds as normal.
If anything goes wrong, or even just doesn't look right it's best to hit TO/GA and get out of there. Then we can watch the auto go-around function!


Procedures and requirements vary from aircraft to aircraft and from country to country, I'm just giving a general oversight for the lay person.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting Jawed (Thread starter):
If they are not common, why do pilots perform manual landings? Is it for fun and practice, or is it because they are actually better than the autopilot?

Pilots think flying manually is fun, but there are also other factors. To do an autoland, the aircraft has to be set on the ILS from a fair distance. With a manual landing, there can be visual turns close to the runway and so forth. Thus autolands limit landing capacity for the airport.

As for the autopilot or the pilots being better, it depends very much on the aircraft. Some autopilots/autothrottle systems are very very slick nowadays. But as said before, they still can't perform visual turns onto final and such.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
But as said before, they still can't perform visual turns onto final and such.

Are you saying an auto-pilot can't intercept a final approach course or simply that the auto-land funtion is usually not done with a turn onto final say closer than 5 NM?
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Lucky42
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 1):
On CAT III approaches the autoland is carried out. At the point of DH, there is very little time left till touchdown

On a true cat III approach there is no DH..It is actually an AH (alert height).
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 3):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
But as said before, they still can't perform visual turns onto final and such.

Are you saying an auto-pilot can't intercept a final approach course or simply that the auto-land funtion is usually not done with a turn onto final say closer than 5 NM?

I don't know the NM figure, but I'm pretty sure you can't autoland into LGA with the final turn under 1000 ft and right at the airport.

As for intercepting a final approach course, I'm pretty sure you CAN do that. Don't quote me on any of this  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 4):
On a true cat III approach there is no DH..It is actually an AH (alert height).

A CAT IIIa appraoch has a decision height, a CAT IIIb does not.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:08 am

From what I heard from talking to a few pilots most do the approach manually with computer guidance, unless there is weather of course. It's not only practice but it's the only time they get to have any fun since most of the time they are just talking to atc and pushing buttons. By the way autopilot is a luxury most non turbine and some turbine planes have no autopilot so pilots have to fly the whole time even in 0 visibility.
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 7):
most non turbine and some turbine planes have no autopilot so pilots have to fly the whole time even in 0 visibility.

If there is no autopilot they are limited to CAT I approaches only with minimum RVR of 550m.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:30 pm

When Cat II/III approaches, and/or autolands are being conducted, typically the visability is low with calm or little wind. The 737 has a 10 kt cross wind limitation for an autoland, most airlines typically require 1 autoland every 30 days.
 
Ejazz
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 6):
A CAT IIIa appraoch has a decision height, a CAT IIIb does not.

That all depends on the Airlines Governing Body and what approval the Airline has received from the Countries it operates to. Many Airlines have a 20ft DH for CATIIIB approaches.

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 8):
f there is no autopilot they are limited to CAT I approaches only with minimum RVR of 550m.

Again it depends on what certification the Airline/Aircraft have received. Some particular aircraft types are approved to be manually flown beyond CatI to CATII minimas of 100ft with minimum 350m visibility.

I believe commercial aircraft equipped with HUD can even be manually flown to CATIIIA minima but maybe someone here can confirm that.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting Jawed (Thread starter):
How common are fully automatic autopilot-landings on commercial passenger flights?

I meet short haul A320 and long haul B777 here at work.

The short haul aircraft that land here do autolands only when weather conditions require it. As we rarely have weather worse than Cat 1, we end up with about 1 landing in 200 an autoland.
The long haul aircraft that land after flying 12hrs through the night, about every other landing is an autoland!! I commented to one of the pilots about this and he admitted it was easier when he was tired.
 
nonfirm
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 1):
Autolands are not done very often. They can be made in good and bad weather but they are usually carried out when RVR (Runway Visual Range) is low.

We perform autolands every month to keep the a/c current.If the a/c misses it's 30 day autoland eval then we have to downgrade the a/c to CAT I until the autoland has been completed.. airplane 
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:08 pm

The minimums for CAT IIIc would be 0/0. Practically all CAT IIIb certified aircraft can make it, but then they would be stuck on the runway, because they would not be able to find their way to the stand. There exist a few airports (LHR comes to my mind) which have a taxi guidance system, but the aircraft must be equipped to use this system as well. Now since very few airports have such a system, most airlines don't install the necessary hardware on their aircraft.

Jan
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
I don't know the NM figure, but I'm pretty sure you can't autoland into LGA with the final turn under 1000 ft and right at the airport.

As for intercepting a final approach course, I'm pretty sure you CAN do that. Don't quote me on any of this

Ahhhh shit, I quoted you on this here........darn it!  Smile Yeah I know they can do all the turns etc, you may be correct about the 1,000' cuzz most want their airplanes stabilzed at 1,000' AGL in the first place (Capt to chief pilot, "sir, I don't know what the plane was doing but I was stablized at 1,000' AGL")  angel 

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 9):
When Cat II/III approaches, and/or autolands are being conducted, typically the visability is low with calm or little wind. The 737 has a 10 kt cross wind limitation for an autoland, most airlines typically require 1 autoland every 30 days

Had you been flyin last week on Wed and not commuting you'd have had your autoland done with the RVR's around 800' for 26L!!!  relieved 
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 14):
I know they can do all the turns etc, you may be correct about the 1,000' cuzz most want their airplanes stabilzed at 1,000' AGL in the first place

I'm sure most CATIII jets would be the same but for sure the MD-11 performs a dual land check that starts at about 1500' so turning on at a 1000' would blow the check. It won't happen

Quoting Ejazz (Reply 10):
Again it depends on what certification the Airline/Aircraft have received. Some particular aircraft types are approved to be manually flown beyond CatI to CATII minimas of 100ft with minimum 350m visibility.

Yep, I used to fly for a co. that was certified to hand fly CATII app.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 1):
A CAT I ILS approach requires an Touchdown Zone RVR of more than 550m and a DH (decision height) of no less than 200`
A CAT II ILS approach lowers the minimums to 300m and 100`.
A CAT IIIa ILS approach lowers them to 200m and 50`.
A CAT IIIb ILS approach has RVR down to 75m and no DH.
There is also a CAT IIIc appraoch, but I'm not well up on those as they are very uncommon

Beat me to it.  Big grin

We have a CAT III approach out here at JAX and its pretty amazing to watch the birds bring in themselves. However, they are very strict in keeping those approaches to only those who are certified for them. Otherwise, every numbnut with a Cessna and autopilot would be trying to practice them.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):
I'm sure most CATIII jets would be the same but for sure the MD-11 performs a dual land check that starts at about 1500' so turning on at a 1000' would blow the check. It won't happen

What does being stabilized at 1,000' have to do with turning at 1,000'?
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 16):
However, they are very strict in keeping those approaches to only those who are certified for them. Otherwise, every numbnut with a Cessna and autopilot would be trying to practice them.

Who is keeping track of who is making autolands or not and if they are conducted in CAT III weather how do you see them?  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:15 pm

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Smile

[Edited 2006-10-09 05:18:50]
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 19):
Hey Usnseallt82, we are all impressed with your profile and title at a.net and all...

Don't see how this has any relevance to the topic.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 19):
Have you ever flown a Cat II or III approach?

I've flown a CAT II approach, but never a CAT III. I'd like to one day, but I would imagine that I'd be doing it in a simulator before I'd do the real thing.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 19):
Who keeps track of who is making autolands and under what conditions?

You have to specifically request a CAT II or III approach and then ATC decides whether or not to give it to you. From what I understand, your aircraft information and certification that is uploaded with your IFR flight plan says whether or not you can do it, if you're filing into IFR conditions. I may be wrong about this, but its how the military does it. If you aren't in equipment certified for the approach or don't have the certification yourself, you can't do it.

Now, will someone pimp you until you confess over the airwaves that you shouldn't be doing it? Probably not. But if you do it and ATC has any inclination that you shouldn't have been, expect a ramp check when you land. They don't play around with 0/0 approaches.

If someone can clarify the airlines' methods, have at it.
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phxplanes
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:30 pm

So do do airlines require the aircraft or the pilots to do one auto land a month?

Personally for me I would want to do all the take-offs and landings by hand because it would be more fun.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:40 pm

Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 21):
So do do airlines require the aircraft or the pilots to do one auto land a month?

Personally for me I would want to do all the take-offs and landings by hand because it would be more fun.

The reason is to keep in touch in case of the need for Autoland.With Visability dropped.Its no fun  Smile
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Starlionblue
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 21):

Personally for me I would want to do all the take-offs and landings by hand because it would be more fun.

As HAWK21M says, the giggle factor drops dramatically if you can't see anything.

Also, why shouldn't autolands be fun? That too is piloting, and requires significant skill to do correctly.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 17):
What does being stabilized at 1,000' have to do with turning at 1,000'?

Oh huge typo....should have being stablized at 1,000' and autolands don't happen in normal situations....CAT III condition the turn to final is not closer than 8-9 miles in the states.

[Edited 2006-10-09 13:58:06]
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
You have to specifically request a CAT II or III approach and then ATC decides whether or not to give it to you. From what I understand, your aircraft information and certification that is uploaded with your IFR flight plan says whether or not you can do it, if you're filing into IFR conditions. I may be wrong about this, but its how the military does it. If you aren't in equipment certified for the approach or don't have the certification yourself, you can't do it.

Nope, you don't have to request it......weather in the toilet and the runway has a charted CAT II/III ILS then you get it, no requesting it, SIR! Next, someone might ask if you're CAT II/III capable meaning you and the airplane but that is normally so you don't get into the approach sequence and then say "I can't accept an RVR of 1,000' ". In VMC it is smart to tell a controller you're gonna autoland so they keep the critical areas clear of other traffic and objects, only reason though to tell. As for the filing in the flight plan, I don't think so but I know I don't ever see a flight plan to know who is and who isn't.

Who is the squeeky wheel that gets a ramp check started, must be one of the pilot friends that tells the police huh?  Smile

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
But if you do it and ATC has any inclination that you shouldn't have been, expect a ramp check when you land. They don't play around with 0/0 approaches.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 17):
What does being stabilized at 1,000' have to do with turning at 1,000'?

I think you may have answered your own question in a later post but to clarify what I said: The jet must be tracking the LOC and GS above 1500' at which time the A/Ps (2) begin their dual land chk. If at the end of the chk all is in agreement then dual land is displayed and the CATIII app continues. If not then either single land or app only is displayed and CATIII is out.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
You have to specifically request a CAT II or III approach and then ATC decides whether or not to give it to you. From what I understand, your aircraft information and certification that is uploaded with your IFR flight plan says whether or not you can do it, if you're filing into IFR conditions. I may be wrong about this, but its how the military does it. If you aren't in equipment certified for the approach or don't have the certification yourself, you can't do it.

I have never had to request the app. You're cleared for the app and it's up to you to know your certification limits. I'm sure there is nothing on your flt pln data that shows CATII/III qual or certification. Most data on the strip refers to RVSM, FANS, RNAV, etc. I HAVE been asked in some foreign countries what my mins were before being cleared for the app but that's about it. If you shoot an app you're not qualified to make someone will find out, probably your co. first and the rest will be history, including you.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 25):
Nope, you don't have to request it......



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 26):
I have never had to request the app.

Must be something with our regs then, because we have to specifically request it before we can shoot the approach. I would imagine that most airliners wouldn't have to do this because they fly the routes so regularly, but I'm sure someone at some point had to upload the data.

Would be nice if we could just shoot it without requesting it, but it isn't too hard to do.  yes 

France likes to ask our mins all the time, though I think they do it out of spite and rarely because of the actual need-to-know.
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113312
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
You have to specifically request a CAT II or III approach and then ATC decides whether or not to give it to you. From what I understand, your aircraft information and certification that is uploaded with your IFR flight plan says whether or not you can do it, if you're filing into IFR conditions.

Not quite right. In the USA, FAA flight plans have no information about the approach category of a given flight. Even if there were a code to initially file, that wouldn't be transmitted down line. In addition, ATC never decides to give this type of approach. ATC can clear a flight for an ILS approach, it is up to the Pilot-In-Command to determine the applicable minimums. However, since the ILS beams can be disturbed by vehicles in the vicinity of the transmitters, anytime the actual weather is below a certain value, protection of the beams must be provided. This, of course, includes weather that would require a CAT II or CAT III approach.

When a crew elects to conduct an automatic landing in better than CAT II weather, such protection would not normally be provided and must be requested by the crew. This is done by alerting ATC that the flight will be conducting a CAT II or CAT III approach.

With regard to the minimum altitude to commence an auto-land (CAT III) procedure, most aircraft must be configured and established at no less than 1000 feet height above touchdown to allow sufficient time for all of the internal self tests to be completed. Most systems will disconnect the autopilots at 300 feet if these tests have not occurred and the autoland would have to be abandoned.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting 113312 (Reply 28):
When a crew elects to conduct an automatic landing in better than CAT II weather, such protection would not normally be provided and must be requested by the crew.

Exactly...which is why I said this...

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
You have to specifically request a CAT II or III approach and then ATC decides whether or not to give it to you.

ATC can't just give you the approach. You have to request it because only you know what your capabilities are. Because it is a sensitive approach, they can't ask anyone to do it. It has to be requested.

I think you guys may have misunderstood what I meant by it has to be requested.  yes 
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 29):
ATC can't just give you the approach. You have to request it because only you know what your capabilities are. Because it is a sensitive approach, they can't ask anyone to do it. It has to be requested.

As was posted by me and a couple of others ; ATC will clear you for the ILS app. It's up to you to know your mins.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 29):
Exactly...which is why I said this...

you may be comparing apples to oranges here. If it's vfr and you want to do a CATIII chk we usually tell app. control for "an equip chk" and that tells them to give us a longer turn on to the ILS instead of the norm turn at or inside the marker for a visual app. In CATII wx you can still do an autoland in the single land mode or dual land.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting 113312 (Reply 28):
When a crew elects to conduct an automatic landing in better than CAT II weather, such protection would not normally be provided and must be requested by the crew. This is done by alerting ATC that the flight will be conducting a CAT II or CAT III approach.

As far as the aircraft is concerned, there is no difference between a CAT II or CAT III. They're both autoland approaches. If you inform tower you want to do an "autoland" or an equipment check they'll know what you mean and make sure the protected area remains clear.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 27):
Must be something with our regs then, because we have to specifically request it before we can shoot the approach. I would imagine that most airliners wouldn't have to do this because they fly the routes so regularly, but I'm sure someone at some point had to upload the data.

Would be nice if we could just shoot it without requesting it, but it isn't too hard to do.

France likes to ask our mins all the time, though I think they do it out of spite and rarely because of the actual need-to-know.

ATC will clear you for the CAT II or CAT III approach, it's up to you to accept or decline the clearance. They will, if aircraft are holding, ask you if you can accept the CAT II/III approach or verify your minimums simply to sequence the arrivals. In reality, ATC could care less if you are qualified or not, it's really not their problem.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 29):
Because it is a sensitive approach, they can't ask anyone to do it. It has to be requested.

It's no more sensitive than any other ILS approach!

[Edited 2006-10-09 19:46:26]
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usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 31):
It's no more sensitive than any other ILS approach!

Not the equipment itself, but the fact that you're going down to 0/0 conditions. That's pretty sensitive.  yes 



Trivia question here....which airline was the first to use a 0/0 CAT III approach during a regularly scheduled flight?  Big grin
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 32):
Trivia question here....which airline was the first to use a 0/0 CAT III approach during a regularly scheduled flight?

A BEA Trident !C made the first autoland in scheduled service with ordinary passengers on board on 10 June 1965. It was Cat3b certified at that time and the first real cat 3b landing was made later that year.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 31):
ATC will clear you for the CAT II or CAT III approach, it's up to you to accept or decline the clearance. They will, if aircraft are holding, ask you if you can accept the CAT II/III approach or verify your minimums simply to sequence the arrivals. In reality, ATC could care less if you are qualified or not, it's really not their problem.

Exactly correct except for the first sentence my friend.....ATC doesn't clear you for the CAT II or III ILS, simply "cleared for the ILS Runway 27approach", and before you get to the final approach fix or soon to be call precision approach fix an RVR must be issued to the crew, no CAT II or III stated in the clearance.
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PhilSquares
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 34):
Exactly correct except for the first sentence my friend.....ATC doesn't clear you for the CAT II or III ILS, simply "cleared for the ILS Runway 27approach", and before you get to the final approach fix or soon to be call precision approach fix an RVR must be issued to the crew, no CAT II or III stated in the clearance

It might be like that under the FAA, however, every CATII or CAT III approach I've ever flown in the US or any other part of the world has had the specific clearance.

If you look at the Jepp charts you'll see just about everyplace had a CATI approach chart and then another for the Low Vis operations. Technically, they are two different approaches.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 35):
It might be like that under the FAA, however, every CATII or CAT III approach I've ever flown in the US or any other part of the world has had the specific clearance.

If you look at the Jepp charts you'll see just about everyplace had a CATI approach chart and then another for the Low Vis operations. Technically, they are two different approaches.

Sure don't want to say your mistaken and with all due respect, but I may have to on this one sir!!  Smile In the US about your clearance issued, even with 3 different charts for the same approach only different minima lines and the SAAAR note.....but I've been clearning CAT II/III approaches for well over 25 yrs and not even 1 time included the CAT II/III words in the clearance, probably the only time I use 100% correct by the book phraseology.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:40 pm

Consider for what it's worth that there's no distingtion between IIIA or IIIB. This involves diff. RVR criterior and mins but it's up to you to know this.
My last time into MXP the vis was low and the ATC controller was asking every plane what their mins were, period. He didn't specify any particular app he just asked "what are your minimums?" Most of the jets were giving quite high mins and when he asked us we replied "175 m" and we were brought right in for the ILS app....CC
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 16):
Otherwise, every numbnut with a Cessna and autopilot would be trying to practice them.



Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
I've flown a CAT II approach, but never a CAT III. I'd like to one day, but I would imagine that I'd be doing it in a simulator before I'd do the real thing.



Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
You have to specifically request a CAT II or III approach and then ATC decides whether or not to give it to you

Wrong...ref IAHflyr's comments...

My point is that you don't have a whole lot of correct knowledge or experience on the topic, but you seem to imply you do...The question was on autolands; simulating a Cat I,II, or III is just a function of when or if you look up, which can be done by any "numbnut with a cessna".

[Edited 2006-10-10 20:23:41]
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 38):
any "numbnut with a cessna".

That would be me........but funny as it might seem I do know of guy with much more $$ than brains (no not me Essential, I've got nun of either  Smile ) that has a Cessna that is CAT III certified.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 38):
My point is that you don't have a whole lot of correct knowledge or experience on the topic, but you seem to imply you do...

You have to request a CAT II approach. ATC can offer it, but only you know your minimums. I've flown a CAT II. Therein lies the base of my knowledge. Nothing more, nor have I claimed anything more other than what I know.

You argument doesn't make much sense here.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 40):
You have to request a CAT II approach. ATC can offer it, but only you know your minimums. I've flown a CAT II. Therein lies the base of my knowledge. Nothing more, nor have I claimed anything more other than what I know.

You argument doesn't make much sense here.

Sir, why won't you accept what is being told to you, it is the real stuff......from folks who fly it, control it and more? Fact....ATC does not have to have a request from the pilot in order to clear you for an approach with RVR's below 1,800' for most US airports and for aircraft such as Southwest that have heads up displays.....RVR is issued, if you can't begin the approach with that value because it is to low then YOU tell ATC I can't accept the approach with that RVR, period, end of story for that approach, you go burn more gas holding and/or divert.

Your knowledge is from a CAT II in what type of airplane if I may ask?

And Essential I don't think is argue mode yet!!!  Smile But makes total sense to me, maybe I am just dumber than dirt though.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 41):
Fact....ATC does not have to have a request from the pilot in order to clear you for an approach with RVR's below 1,800' for most US airports and for aircraft such as Southwest that have heads up displays

You're kidding me, right? Not once have I said that ATC requests it. I think this is where you guys are getting me confused. What I've meant this entire time is that the PILOT is the one in control over the approach.

From earlier...

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 20):
then ATC decides whether or not to give it to you.

ATC's main role is to provide traffic flow and separation. If ATC can't clear you for a CAT II or III approach, they won't give it to you....meaning, they aren't going to be able to clear you for the ILS approach since CAT's are just adjusted mins for the exact same approach.

Want to argue this with me? Then tell the controllers at JAX to get their heads outta their asses because I'd love to be cleared more often for the approach than what they've been giving me recently.  Big grin

The point is, and the point I've been trying to make this entire time, is that ATC is not going to just randomly come out and tell Joe Blow in his Cessna that he's cleared for the CAT III approach unless he asks for it, which in that case they will just clear him for the ILS approach and the DH information is all put on his shoulders(the pilot). Otherwise, they have no idea if he's certified or not and don't really care unless he has an accident because he isn't using the right equipment.

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 41):
Your knowledge is from a CAT II in what type of airplane if I may ask?

732 and a lovely P-8 sim.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 41):
...

One more thing, which is completely my fault because I haven't been real clear in my posts, as I just looked back over them again.  Big grin

I never meant to imply that ATC calls out "cleared for the ILS 17R CATIII approach." They will only clear you for the ILS approach. To them, it doesn't mean a hill of beans what you use to get down on the ground, just as long as you are doing it in the confines of the published approach. Your mins are your business, whether you're certified or not. ("you" being the pilot) If the pilot isn't certified, he's the one taking the chance.

Sorry about the confusion there guys. It was my fault for not being clear with what I was saying. But I'm certain that we're on the same page here.  yes   checkmark 
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Pihero
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 33):
Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 32):
Trivia question here....which airline was the first to use a 0/0 CAT III approach during a regularly scheduled flight?

A BEA Trident !C made the first autoland in scheduled service with ordinary passengers on board on 10 June 1965. It was Cat3b certified at that time and the first real cat 3b landing was made later that year.

I beg to disagree, TristarSteve.
That airplane might have well performed the first automatic landing with pasengers on-board, the first aircraft to be cleared for Cat.III is the Caravelle, which was certified for these conditions on December 28, 1968 after demonstrating some 3500 successful test landings.
The first cat.III automatic landingon a normal revenue flight was done on January 9, 1969 by an Air Inter Caravelle doing Lyon-Orly.
As for the Trident, the CAA approval came only in 1972 for cat.III, at which time Air Inter had performed some 6000 blind landings. And apparently, the landings were so hard on the Trident it needed a whole rebuilding of the wing spars, which was so expensive most airlines elected to bin the aircraft instead.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 42):
You're kidding me, right? Not once have I said that ATC requests it. I think this is where you guys are getting me confused. What I've meant this entire time is that the PILOT is the one in control over the approach.

Pal not kidding you at all.....it isn't anyone is saying ATC requests you fly the CAT II/III, it is that you will get a clearance for the approach and if you can't fly it cuzz the wx is below your mins or airplane mins you tell ATC! Most busy places won't even let you near the final approach course when the wx is down to mins or such unless you are capable and certified to fly CAT II/III!

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 42):
ATC's main role is to provide traffic flow and separation.

And all this time I thought something totally different, damn!  Smile

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 42):
If ATC can't clear you for a CAT II or III approach, they won't give it to you....meaning, they aren't going to be able to clear you for the ILS approach since CAT's are just adjusted mins for the exact same approach.

Lost me on the one but that's okay, I'll recover.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 42):
Then tell the controllers at JAX to get their heads outta their asses because I'd love to be cleared more often for the approach than what they've been giving me recently.

Maybe they know you? Just kidding, but again not sure what that means either, if you're on approach you mean they won't give you the clearance, you've got to ask for it?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 43):

Nice job
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EssentialPowr
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 40):
You have to request a CAT II approach. ATC can offer it, but only you know your minimums. I've flown a CAT II. Therein lies the base of my knowledge. Nothing more, nor have I claimed anything more other than what I know.

You argument doesn't make much sense here.

My argument makes total sense; IAHFLYR explained the majority of it to you of Cat II/IIIs to you, multiple times, I might add.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 42):
Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 41):
Your knowledge is from a CAT II in what type of airplane if I may ask?

732 and a lovely P-8 sim.

There is no shame in that, but your tone was a bit condescending and I think we can agree your experience in the topic is largely from a theory standpoint, as opposed to personal experience.

Sorry if I was harsh...
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting Essentialpowr (Reply 46):
Sorry if I was harsh...

No worries....I thrive on being harsh.  Big grin

And yes, my standpoint is largely from theory and in the sim, not from as much practical experience as I would like. The Navy forces a lot of sim work before letting guys take the birds down for these approaches. But the times I've actually completed them, I had to request the approach.

So, I think I've explained myself at this point. Sorry for being harsh myself.  Big grin

(and yeah, I did catch the NFO comment....your ass is mine! Big grin )
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bond007
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 47):
But the times I've actually completed them, I had to request the approach.

But perhaps this is a matter of interpretation....if you were going to normally be cleared for the visual approach...but you were practicing ILS approaches, then obviously you would have to 'request the approach'. Or, if the approach currently in use, is different from the one you want to so...then yes, you would need to request it (VOR vs GPS etc.)....I guess that's obvious though  Wink

BUT....I've swallowed the FAA ATC handbook (as some may know), and actually the only mention of the word 'CAT' in terms of ILS, is regarding the monitoring equipment required....nothing related to phraseology.


Jimbo
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NZ8800
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RE: Auto-pilot Landing On Commercial Airliners?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:31 pm

Just throwing in from a passenger perspective... Cat III approaches can be scary back in the cabin... like breaking out of the clouds about three seconds before touchdown at Helsinki-Vantaa... !!!
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