Qantas744er
Posts: 1150
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:36 am

Boeing 747-400BCF

Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:43 pm

Hey, i am trying to find some 744BCF specific data. Im talking about MLW ZFW
and max payload weight.

Cheers Leo
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
EMBQA
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Thread starter):
Hey, i am trying to find some 744BCF specific data.

Did you try.. www.boeing.com....???
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
star_world
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:30 am

 
Qantas744er
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Did you try.. www.boeing.com....???

Hmmmm yes i did... the question is did you...? or am i blind. i dont see it stating
ZFW, MLW etc...

Check it out yourself next time...
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EMBQA
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 3):
Hmmmm yes i did... the question is did you...?

Yes I did. You need to do a little digging but the site is loaded with great information and even a section with on-line performance data, charts, graphs.

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 3):
I don't see it stating ZFW, MLW etc...

OK, so help us non-MS FlightSim folks out... What is ZFW...? MLW...? I'm guessing MLW is max landing weight.

You can also go to the TCDS web page and that is full of all kinds of information as well.......

[Edited 2006-10-15 19:02:09]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
OK, so help us non-MS FlightSim folks out... What is ZFW...? MLW...? I'm guessing MLW is max landing weight.

ZFW: Zero Fuel Weight. AFAIK this is the weight without fuel. I don't know if this includes the fuel that cannot be used by the engines because of tank configuration.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
EMBQA
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
ZFW: Zero Fuel Weight. AFAIK this is the weight without fuel.

Twelve years in commercial aviation I've never heard it called ZFW.. Anyway, going to the 747-400BCF TCDS page it dosn't list Max Landing or Zero Fuel weights. It refers you to the airlines AFM, so with that each operator is slightly different.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7474sec2.pdf

[Edited 2006-10-15 21:10:38]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Twelve years in commercial aviation I've never heard it called ZFW.. Anyway, going to the 747-400BCF TCDS page it dosn't list Max Landing or Zero Fuel weights. It refers you to the airlines AFM, so with that each operator is slightly different.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7474sec2.pdf

Once again you have not read properly..

There is no BCF page in that document and I have already seen it..

There is 747-400pax with PW GE and RR engines
747-400Combi with PW GE and RR engines
747-400F with PW GE RR engines and
747-400 domestic with GE engines.

So were like you stated does it tell me info about the BCF?

Cheers Leo
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
EMBQA
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 7):
So, where like you stated does it tell me info about the BCF?



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Anyway, going to the 747-400BCF TCDS page it dosn't list Max Landing or Zero Fuel weights. It refers you to the airlines AFM, so with that each operator is slightly different.

The Boeing web site does give the Max Payload at: 250,000lbs. The rest of what your looking for is based on a case by case basis. What engines are on the plane being converted, what structural set up does it have, what options does the new airline what. The BCF is a converted passenger plane and when converted they will all be slightly different. You WILL NOT have a set of fixed numbers.....

[Edited 2006-10-15 22:57:57]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
You WILL NOT have a set of fixed numbers.....

Actually you will... the ZFW always differs by a couple of hundred lbs but still there is a general number..so does the MLW the only difference their is, is that
for exaple you can choose between 652,000Lbs and 666,000Lbs MLW
but not 655,000 so again your wrong.

And i also found out that the MZFW is 599,750Lbs. So there is no big difference a operator has..

Cheers Leo
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BAE146QT
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:06 am

Man, I really pulled a boner in that Branson thread, but this?

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
OK, so help us non-MS FlightSim folks out...

I thought you were just being nasty in a general way there, until I saw the PMDG reference in the sig.

I'm a simmer (and modeller) myself and I often get hold of aircraft where the designer has modelled pax as part of the base package. Causes a problem with FSPassengers, since that app tries to add weight to the base aircraft in line with the number of people you try to put on. Much hilarity and aircraft.cfg editing ensues.

I expect what you have here is someone from "Aviation Hobby" venturing into Tech/Ops to try for a little accuracy (either in the sim or as part of a model).

Personally I find close enough is good enough for that application.
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EMBQA
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 10):
Personally I find close enough is good enough for that application.

The very point I've tried to make. The only printed information he's asking for is the Max Payload. As for the rest, by going to the TCDS on the 747-400 and the BCF, all it states is 'Refer to the airlines Operations Manual for this data' What that means is each BCF will be different. There is also not a TCDS issued for the BCF.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
What that means is each BCF will be different.

Aye, every aircraft in GQ's fleet has different weights (ie ZFW, MTOW, MLW...by know you know the drill)... A manufacturer isn't going to have the exact numbers...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:49 am

Well quite.

Actually, if he's doing what I think he's doing, all he needs to know is the dry weight of the aircraft.

Saying that, the .pdf Star_World linked to does include a section for each model called "Zero Fuel Weight". I imply this (from their text) to be the weight of the aircraft with all lubricants on board, with sumped tanks*. Perhaps this is Boeing's own lingo? In Section 2.1 they actually call it MZFW, or "Maximum Design Zero Fuel Weight".

I would also interpret MLW to mean "Maximum Landing Weight", since the .pdf describes such an attribute.








*To me this means, "no usable fuel, but the tanks are not necessarily empty".
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Qantas744er
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Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:36 am

RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 13):
I would also interpret MLW to mean "Maximum Landing Weight", since the .pdf describes such an attribute.

You both dont seem to understand..

If ZFW etc. is operator specific then why even wright it down in the manual??
The differences will only be in a couple of hundred pounds and that is my point.. So there is a general MZFW of 272T because that is the only option
for the BCF. I also know that the BCF is slightly lighter than the 744F
because it doesnt have the nose cargo door.

So to clear it up these could be the differences.

MTOW Depends what operator chose to buy initially NO CHANGE
ZFW Standard for 744F 363,088Lbs so for BCF we could say 362,500Lbs
MLW 630,000Lbs keeping the MLW from the PAX 744 NO CHANGE
MZFW 599,750 higher MZFW because of lower ZFW
Max Payload 250,200Lbs little higher than 744F but the floor does have some
weaker spots.

Summing this up there is a "general" ZFW for the 747BCF because if there wernt, why would they do one for the pax 744?
And you can see that the pdf. shows that GE PW and RR 744pax all have a general ZFW of 394,000Lbs. And the same numbers must exist for the BCF.

Concluding it just seems that boeing has not yet updated the .pdf

Cheers Leo
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EMBQA
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 14):
Concluding it just seems that boeing has not yet updated the .pdf

You are the one that is not getting it. READ THE TCDS...!!! It says for the information you are requesting "See the airlines AFM for specific information" That means each BCF will have different numbers and they are not going to issue a 'standard' set.
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pygmalion
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RE: Boeing 747-400BCF

Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:45 am

The ZFW for each aircraft (each individual aircraft) is determined just prior to delivery by draining tanks to min usable fuel, with all other fluids topped off and then weighing the airplane. That number goes into the logbook and is kept up to date by the airline as they change airplane, change seat etc. Though you might find a generalized number for a BCF, the collection of planes it might have been made from would make it a ball park number at best.

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