camair
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:25 am

18 Seater Prop Information

Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:20 pm

Hi looking for some specific information on 18 seaters like HAL/Dornier 228, Jetstream 31 and B1900D. I want to compare these aircraft for missions ranging from 1 to 1.5 hours:

Passenger Capacity apart from 2 cockpit crew and 1 cabin crew, Pressurisation, Range in KM, Cruising speed, Takeoff distance to 50 ft, Fuel Flow/Hour, Operating (Fuel) cost per km, Baggage capacity (front and rear max), Night Flying Ability, Single Cockpit Crew?, Typical Annual Least Cost (A-M-I/A-C-M-I).

Also can the Dornier 228/J32 be configured with a full/mini-galley capable of serving small hot meals and accomodate upto 1 cabin crew? I have seen a pic of a Dornier 228 cabin with "TOILET" labelled across the rear bulkhead wall. Does this mean that fitting a toilet will take away baggage capacity on the D228? The Dornier I have seen did not have a toilet.

Also frm what I have seen, the last(bulkhead) row of the Dornier with 3 seats can be used for 1 crew seat in the center (folded away when using galley), the right window seat being replaced by a galley while the left window seat left open for a toilet door. Would this work? But this would reduce capacity from 19 to 16.

How would this work on a J32? and a B1900D? Toilet and galley comes as std fitting on these aircraft?

The B1900D is pressurised I think. What about the other 2? How would the
D228 perform at airports at altitudes like 18000 feet (leh?). Ths Indian Airforce does operate the Dornier at these altitudes but can it be operated in civilian transport mode if unpressurised?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks and regards. Rainer
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting CamAir (Thread starter):
and 1 cabin crew

I have yet to hear of an air carrier having cabin crews in these aircraft. The whole point of the 19 seat model is that it fits perfectly under the clause to have cabin crew ie: 20...
 
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zeke
Posts: 9850
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:47 pm

Quoting CamAir (Thread starter):
Passenger Capacity apart from 2 cockpit crew and 1 cabin crew, Pressurisation, Range in KM, Cruising speed, Takeoff distance to 50 ft, Fuel Flow/Hour, Operating (Fuel) cost per km, Baggage capacity (front and rear max), Night Flying Ability, Single Cockpit Crew?, Typical Annual Least Cost (A-M-I/A-C-M-I).

None of these would be single pilot with pax.

You may also want to look at the SA227 ( Metroliner 3 or Metroliner 23) as well, in the same class, much the same engine as the J32/Do227.

Toilets from what I have seen dont seem to be standard on any 19 seater, they are designed for short hops, nor is a FA.

Dont think the 228 is pressurised, the rest are for sure.

The best source for the information you are after is the yearly comparison the Business and Commercial Aviation magazine run. They do a comparison for all the lighter jets and turboprops, including crewing, maintenance, and operating costs with some different stage lengths.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
access-air
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:03 am

The Dornier 228 is the only UN-Pressurised one that you mentioned....

Just a note, back when Air Midwest in the late 1960s first took delviery of their Beech 99s, they had hired what they called Mini-Stews (Flight Attendants under 5 feet tall) to work in the Beech 99s....Altho they sometimes got grounded for a fare paying passengers, as they were not essential on the 15 passenger Beech 99....
I have also heard of Flight Attandants on deHavilland Twin Otters and they carry only 19 passengers in their typical operations...The Twotter is also UN-Pressurized....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
flymatt2bermud
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:58 am

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:40 am

Ditto on the B&CA recommendation, they provide an excellent comparison model to model, which I give them 3 (out of 4) stars but for cost accuracy they barely rate 2 stars in my book.

You can also get a couple of pages per aircraft of cost, depreciation and performance comparisons from Conklin & deDecker by subscription. They provide a CD to look at aircraft to aircraft details from every conceivable angle. CEO's, board member and auditors love to see all the details. Still I think I would give them the same rating as B&CA after it's all said and done.

You can also pay thousands of dollars for a company to do a thorough analysis based on peer operators. These reports have never been as thorough as I would like them to be.

In summation, you'll get 95% of what you're probably looking for from B&CA just put 15 to 20% additional in your budget for mom & the kids.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
 
turkee
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:21 pm

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 2):
You may also want to look at the SA227 ( Metroliner 3 or Metroliner 23) as well, in the same class, much the same engine as the J32/Do227

The airline I work for operates a fleet of turboprop aircraft, including six Metro 23s (http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=215 - pencil planes). For the OPs benefit, they are operated with two flight crew, 19 pax seats, and can sacrifice space in the baggage compartment to fit a toilet (although you would be VERY desperate to want to actually use it - it doesn't fit into the same category as a regular aircraft toilet). It is a pressurised aircraft. There are no provisions for a cabin attendant. Cruise speed is 250-260 knots. We do regular trips with a full payload at 1100nm without refuelling. I'm pretty sure it could go a bit further, but I don't fly the things so I can't give you anything precise.

On a similar note, I saw a toilet first-hand on a Piper Chieftain yesterday... hilarious contraption it is. It is not a private facility, in any sense of the word. I think I'd rather open the door and jump, than subject the rest of the passengers to the scene they would be witnessing.

[Edited 2006-10-27 16:16:09]
 
flymatt2bermud
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:58 am

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Turkee (Reply 5):
I saw a toilet first-hand on a Piper Chieftain yesterday... hilarious contraption it is. It is not a private facility, in any sense of the word. I think I'd rather open the door and jump, than subject the rest of the passengers to the scene they would be witnessing.

I know what you mean, one wrong turn of a knob and you're ejected.  Angry
We used to have to tell the passengers that the relief tube was not a method of communicating with the cockpit. Big grin "Full speed ahead captain! Can you hear me through this thing?"  Wow!
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
 
camair
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:25 am

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:18 pm

Thanks, guys!!! I appreciate  Smile
 
113312
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Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:09 am

RE: 18 Seater Prop Information

Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:33 am

The Jetstream was certified in EU as a transport category plane. Several non-US operators opted for a cabin attendant, light snacks, and had toilets installed. The aircraft is well pressurized with a standup height. Speed and range are good.

The Metro, while a great aircraft, isn't as good in terms of comfort. The cabin height is low and only executive versions have toilets or galleys. Baggage capacity is excellent.

The DO-328 would also be a good pick. It's pressurized, has an excellent cabin, and is modern and quiet inside. Of the turboprop commuter planes I've experienced (most of them), this is among the best produced. You could have all the comforts of galley, flight attendant, carry on baggage, and toilet.

All of these aircraft cruise in the 240-260 knot range overall and can operate efficiently from 10,000 feet to Fl210. Range is dependant on payload and weight of furnishings.

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