Bobster2
Topic Author
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:05 am

I've seen a number of incident investigation reports where they say the CVR had no usable data because nobody pulled the circuit breakers after the incident. The CVR then continued running until the voice recording was overwritten. The reports don't appear to be blaming anybody for this, they simply state the fact that it happened. These are all cases with no fatalities and little or no damage to the airplane, however they were still serious enough to be investigated by authorities and the CVR would have been useful.

So I'm wondering who, if anybody, would be required to preserve the CVR data before it gets overwritten? One example that I have in mind is the recent incident of an airliner landing on a taxiway. Is there a rule for that covers this situation? Or is it left to the judgement of the airline personnel and/or management?
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:09 am

I've never heard of one case that you mention above, but in most cases the aircraft is destroyed and the CVR/FDR is ripped from the plane so there is no reason to pull CB's. If power is lost for any reason the CVR/FDR will stop recording. If the aircraft has been involved in an event that is serious enough, most time it's SOP for the Crash-Rescue the disconnect the batteries.. thus killing power. If for some reason that power is not lost, and if the recorder is requested, Maintenance will pull the CB's and remove the CVR/FDR

[Edited 2006-11-02 00:13:04]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
SP90
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 12:39 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:15 am

I heard its easy for pilots landing on 16R to land on taxiway T by mistake up in SEATAC. 16L/16R and T are all flush when approaching from the north. The taxiway is concrete and the runway is blacktop, add a little glare and it just seem like the better choice.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Thread starter):
I've seen a number of incident investigation reports where they say the CVR had no usable data because nobody pulled the circuit breakers after the incident.
Had it happen on a TWA L-1011 tail drag incident at JFK. Pilot really messed up and did not follow the landing check list ended up doing a "full flap no slat" landing after the slats locked due to a mechanical asymmetry brake trip. Pilot never asked FE for standard "14 greens" which verifies all slats have extended. He stayed in the flight station long after everyone left then pulled circuit breaker after he was sure all pre landing conversations were gone.

[Edited 2006-11-02 00:43:41]
 
Bobster2
Topic Author
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
in most cases the aircraft is destroyed

I'm talking about cases where the airplane continues in service. A rejected takeoff is one example. A near collision on the runway is another. One case involved a violent maneuver during a go-around followed by a safe landing. They may be serious enough to warrant a major investigation, but before the investigation commences, the airplanes have gone to be repaired or they continued normal operation. The short lifetime of the CVR combined with the delay in starting the investigation is the problem.

I only mentioned the taxiway landing incident because it has happened a number of times at various airports with no injuries or damage to the planes. There is no power loss to stop the CVR, no crash crews, no military divers at the bottom of the ocean, the planes just continue service.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:52 am

Most of the cases you mentioned would not warrent pulling the CVR
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:56 am

Usually in an event like these,a request will be made for maintenence to remove the CVR and/or the DFDR,sometimes it's an internal investigation by the airline,in the event it's an incident where the fed's are involved there's a procedure in the airline's GMM or Ops spec,these spell out exactly what to do.Hope that helps some.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:25 am

I think you're talking two separate issues here, deactivation after certain kinds of events, and physical removal from the aircraft.

Deactivation can easily be accomplished by pulling the applicable circuit breaker(s) and that will preclude the recording over the event by ambient sounds occurring after the event. I can readily recall where a Valujet DC-9 that had a landing accident at BNA (landed short of 02L due ground spoiler deployment in-inflight, got airborne again, and came around to the right for a straight-in to 31 and stopped it there on the runway). Someone didn't pull the CVR breaker, and the original event was recorded over. The move from :30 minute CVR recordings to 2 hour recordings provides a little more time to secure things, as well as to record more of what happened prior to the event itself.

As far as removal goes, maintenance (company or contract) can do that, and chain-of-custody procedures followed as a part of whatever degree of investigation results.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Bobster2
Topic Author
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Most of the cases you mentioned would not warrent pulling the CVR

But who makes that decision? Presumably the pilots. But what rules, if any, do they have to follow? Is there an FAA rule that spells out clearly under what circumstances the pilots must pull the breakers and request that the CVR be removed? Is there a company SOP that spells it out?

At the time of the incident, there is not yet an investigation. So I'm wondering what rules cover the time period between the incident and the investigation. Is anybody accountable for what happens during the 2 hours while the CVR is being erased?
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
T prop
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 8):
But who makes that decision? Presumably the pilots. But what rules, if any, do they have to follow? Is there an FAA rule that spells out clearly under what circumstances the pilots must pull the breakers and request that the CVR be removed? Is there a company SOP that spells it out?

When to remove the recorders for an incident is usually spelled out in the airlines GMM and Ops manuals. These manuals are written by the airlines themselves and then reviewed and approved by the FAA. If it's not a crash and the aircraft is at an airport, maintenance personel will remove the recorders per the GMM. The crew is responsible for pulling the CVR breaker. I would imagine the recent CO incident at EWR where the aircraft landed on a taxiway would warrant removal of the recorders.

BTW, the audio on the CVR is easily erased by meeting certain conditions and then pressing the erase button on the CVR panel in the cockpit.


T prop.
 
Bobster2
Topic Author
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 6):
Hope that helps some.

Thanks. By the way, I wasn't ignoring your reply, I just needed some extra clarification.

Quoting T prop (Reply 9):

Thanks for the extra clarification.  Smile
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:18 pm

Time is really not an issue anymore as most current recorders hold up to 12 hours or more of audio data. It is also not recorded on tape, but digitally recorded
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting T prop (Reply 9):
BTW, the audio on the CVR is easily erased by meeting certain conditions and then pressing the erase button on the CVR panel in the cockpit.

Out of curiosity, why is this feature necessary? It seems [to a complete outsider and lay person] like it could be misused or abused.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:32 pm

Out here Mx is needed to Ensure that the CVR CB is pulled out,in case the crew forget.

Quoting T prop (Reply 9):
BTW, the audio on the CVR is easily erased by meeting certain conditions and then pressing the erase button on the CVR panel in the cockpit

This has been deactivated on all Indian Registered Aircraft by Card Deactivation by a DGCA Mandatory Modification.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
T prop
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:58 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
Time is really not an issue anymore as most current recorders hold up to 12 hours or more of audio data. It is also not recorded on tape, but digitally recorded

The most audio that a CVR will hold that I know of is 2 hours for the solid state ones. The SSFDR's hold up to 25 hours of data.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 12):
Out of curiosity, why is this feature necessary? It seems [to a complete outsider and lay person] like it could be misused or abused.

I'm not exactly sure, maybe a pilot union thing. On maint checks one of the items checked is the erase feature. As for the erase button being abused?! Never!..  Yeah sure


T prop.
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:19 am

On the newer aircraft there are items that can be downloaded without removing units,these usually requested by the co. if there is thought of an overtemp of an engine or overtorque in a t-prop,on the Airbus you can retreive info on a turbulence event or heavy landing,depending on the number's received these can make the difference between a simple log-book sign off or an airframe inspection.I've been involved in removing Cvr and Fdr ffrom an aircraft that had a landing accident (non-fatal,aircraft was out of svc for six months)the Director of Maint. called me,told me who to meet,check the person's I.D. (NTSB) and make sure you get a written confirmation from the guy,no problem.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Who Recovers CVR After Non-fatal Incident?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 15):
On the newer aircraft there are items that can be downloaded without removing units

This process is reffered to as "Milking".Its faster than removal of the unit,as only data is downloaded.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests