motopolitico
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UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:00 pm

I was spotting tonight at SDF, and I saw a 757 come in on nothing but strobes until after the aircraft had crossed the threshhold, then the plane lit up like a christmas tree. Saw 741, DC-8-70s, A306s, and 767s, and all of them had their landing lights on through the whole final approach. What operating reason would the lone 757 have had to not have its lights on?
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fr8mech
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:05 pm

The crew probably forgot to turn them on. Of course, since the landing lights are on the 18000' checklist, it brings up other questions.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
lowrider
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:16 pm

"Hey George"

"Yeah Joe?"

"Did they paint the runways black while we were gone?"

"Oh #$@%"

(landing lights come on)


EDIT: A while back, there was a thread on another board titled "I have never..." There is probably a story here for that thread. I know I have never gotten distracted and forgotten to turn on the landing lights.  liar 

[Edited 2006-11-16 08:21:28]
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cancidas
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:49 am

gotta love situations like that... just a reminder we're all human. oh yea, they're funny as hell too!
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
bingo
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:33 am

Quote:
What operating reason would the lone 757 have had to not have its lights on?



Probably a new plugin for the EFB released with IE 7.0  rotfl 
 
bond007
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:47 am

Actually there was a power outage in the area. Probably what caused it. I saw it on the local news.



Jimbo
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BritPilot777
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 5):
Actually there was a power outage in the area. Probably what caused it. I saw it on the local news.

So the power outage on the ground caused the UPS 757 not to have their landing lights on??  Confused

The chaps probably just missed it on the checklists, got over the threshold and realised their landings lights were not lighting up the runway and flicked em on.

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 6):
The chaps probably just missed it on the checklists, got over the threshold and realised their landings lights were not lighting up the runway and flicked em on.

Can they get in trouble over such a thing?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
lowrider
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 7):
Can they get in trouble over such a thing?

Only if it resulted in an incident or a check airman or Fed was observing.
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motopolitico
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:26 am

Okay, now for my next question, (please don't flame me) Having missed that part of the checklist, and only having caught it at the last minute, would they have been potentially justified in performing a go-around, just in case they had missed other important checklist items?
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bond007
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 6):
So the power outage on the ground caused the UPS 757 not to have their landing lights on??

....and I thought the Brits had a sense of humour  Wink



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
VC-10
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:45 am

I was watching one of the last Concorde landings and the crew were switching the lights on and off all along the approach until they crossed the perimeter at LHR.

Concorde didn't have those alternating lights before anybody suggests it.
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:25 am

We turn the landing lights on or off when passing FL100. We can turn them off for other reasons too. I've turned them off due to the disorientating effect they have when flying through cloud at night. On the A320 when they are extended they make an awful lot of vibration if flying at greater thean 250kts.
The fact that they were turned on over the threshold is due to that being the point that they noticed the runway was a bit dark. Could be hard to tell before that.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 1):
Of course, since the landing lights are on the 18000' checklist

Never seeen landing llights as an item on a checklist on any type I've flown.

Quoting Motopolitico (Reply 9):
Okay, now for my next question, (please don't flame me) Having missed that part of the checklist, and only having caught it at the last minute, would they have been potentially justified in performing a go-around, just in case they had missed other important checklist items?

Sorry, but I'm going to have to flame you, but I'm not going to waste my time explaining why.
 
fr8mech
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 12):
Never seeen landing llights as an item on a checklist on any type I've flown.

But it is on UPS.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
roseflyer
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Motopolitico (Reply 9):
Okay, now for my next question, (please don't flame me) Having missed that part of the checklist, and only having caught it at the last minute, would they have been potentially justified in performing a go-around, just in case they had missed other important checklist items?

I don't think that would be an easily justifiable go around. Go arounds are costly in time and fuel.

Everyone makes mistakes. Checklists are good and useful, but it is possible to miss things.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 13):
Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 12):
Never seeen landing llights as an item on a checklist on any type I've flown.

But it is on UPS.

I am not sure how the FAA operates but, in Canada the CARS state that an aeroplane must have a functioning landing light while carrying passengers. Now when it comes to a UPS plane they would be flying around cargo, and thus it is not imperative to have the landing light on, although it helps drastically. Now this is again a Canadian Air Reg and might be different to that of the states. Anyone can correct me on that?
Keep the shinny side up!
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:13 pm

Does the current Canadian reg say that the light has to be functional, or "on"? The old reg stated that landing lights had to fitted to any large aircraft. The use of landing lights below 10,000 ft started way back when that defined the upper limit of "Indian country", where all the Cherokees and Comanches were. Migratory birds are observed as high as 14,000 ft. Other countries use transition level, FL180 in North America, usually lower elsewhere. There is no one standard, and a case can be made for a variety of altitudes for lights on. There also are no magical anti-collision properties of the photons;well illuminated airplanes have hit plenty of things in the past.

Crews can easily forget the lights if something more compelling is happening at the normal lights on point...like a protracted exchange on the radio, or other distraction. The measure of a top crew's performance is not whether they make errors, its how they correct the error and recover a safe operation that counts.

Selecting lights on fixes the problem. The key arrival tasks are: deciding weight-thus arrival speeds, setting auto brakes (if used), setting the altimeters, flaps, gear, arming speedbrake. Anything more important than the lights would be obvious before the flare, but good question, Motopolitico.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 16):
There is no one standard, and a case can be made for a variety of altitudes for lights on. There also are no magical anti-collision properties of the photons;well illuminated airplanes have hit plenty of things in the past.

You said it all, for us it's the rnwy turnoff lights at 180 and the LANDING lites not until 10,000 when we slow to 250. Since thet retract they can be pretty noisy above 250kts.
Are you saying that beaming all those photons forward doesn't help slow you down? "Damn it Jim!" No wonder I keep missing those SLPs! LOL
 
BAE146QT
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser:
Since thet retract they can be pretty noisy above 250kts.

I don't know what you fly*, but IIRC the 737 manual agrees with you - though for a different reason. It states that the landing lights should not be extended above 250 knots because it can damage them, (or their hinges/brackets, I think).


* I just had a look at your profile. Apparently you have 737 posts currently. Spooky.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 18):
I don't know what you fly*, but IIRC the 737 manual agrees with you - though for a different reason.

I fly the MD-11 and there's no speed restriction on the ldg lites but it WILL get loud and since the MD-11 has a quiet cockpit as a rule it's very noticeable.
 
aogdesk
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:42 am

Straight from the horses mouth...

The 757 was doing a coupled approach/autoland, there was no crew in the cockpit to switch on the landing lights. Both capt and f/o were busy re-wrapping the Sony PS3 that they had played with during the flight.  Wink
 
lowrider
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 20):
The 757 was doing a coupled approach/autoland, there was no crew in the cockpit to switch on the landing lights. Both capt and f/o were busy re-wrapping the Sony PS3 that they had played with during the flight.

Outstanding. I just about fell out of my chair.
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AirWillie6475
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 20):
The 757 was doing a coupled approach/autoland, there was no crew in the cockpit to switch on the landing lights. Both capt and f/o were busy re-wrapping the Sony PS3 that they had played with during the flight. Wink

Yea it's on the news that Sony is flying PS3s instead of shipping them because of the demand.
 
motopolitico
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:01 am

Thank you kindly for the enlightening answers. I think I'll forever be in the wannabe-pilot stage, but aviation fascinates me nevertheless. Lately at SDF the spotting's been good as runway 17R/35L have been closed weekends, forcing all traffic to use 17L/35R, where there are excellent spotting opportunities. Thanks for the informed responses.
Garbage stinks; trash don't!
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 20):
Straight from the horses mouth...

The 757 was doing a coupled approach/autoland, there was no crew in the cockpit to switch on the landing lights

I'd be curious who the "horse's mouth" really was. If there REALLY was no crew in the cockpit it would take a fool to admit it since that is not only a terminating offense but the FAA WILL guarantee you they wiil take away your ticket. I know of one such case and the offending crewmember was turned in and he indeed lost his job AND his license.
 
KPIE172
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Motopolitico (Reply 9):
Okay, now for my next question, (please don't flame me) Having missed that part of the checklist, and only having caught it at the last minute, would they have been potentially justified in performing a go-around, just in case they had missed other important checklist items?



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
I don't think that would be an easily justifiable go around. Go arounds are costly in time and fuel.

If the PIC has reason to believe that a another checklist item was missed that could potentially compromise safety he may go around if he so chooses... and for any number of other reasons if the PIC determines it necessary in the interest of safety.

The FARs make this very justifible. Better safe then sorry  Smile
Blue side up!
 
aogdesk
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
I'd be curious who the "horse's mouth" really was. If there REALLY was no crew in the cockpit it would take a fool to admit it since that is not only a terminating offense but the FAA WILL guarantee you they wiil take away your ticket. I know of one such case and the offending crewmember was turned in and he indeed lost his job AND his license.

Ummm....FYI......a winking smiley contained in a post should generally tip the reader off that the post is "tongue in cheek". Are you going to inform me next that if one of the pilots had his tongue in his cheek during the approach that would violate FAR's too??  Smile and just in case you missed it.... Wink
 
bingo
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:39 pm

Quote:
Ummm....FYI......a winking smiley contained in a post should generally tip the reader off that the post is "tongue in cheek". Are you going to inform me next that if one of the pilots had his tongue in his cheek during the approach that would violate FAR's too?? and just in case you missed it....


He's just upset because it was his PS3 they were playing....
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 26):
......a winking smiley contained in a post

LOL, ok you got me! Yeah, I didn't imagine it could be true but truthfully I rarely pay attention to faces. Big grin

Quoting Bingo (Reply 27):
He's just upset because it was his PS3 they were playing....

Nah, I like my Nano.
 
aogdesk
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 10):
...and I thought the Brits had a sense of humour

I actually had a management guy tell me once to make sure that I turned off the lights in one of the cargo pits....so that "we can save energy". Painfully naive, and the look on my face told him so......
 
sonic67
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:14 am

Maybe it was a stealth approach with some top secret packages onboard.
:D
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:00 pm

The Crew probably forgot.And realised when they got near the Surface & noticed no reflection.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:36 pm

Are landing lights needed for landing on every runway?
I thought they weren't necessary if the runway had a certain light set up.
thanks
Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
BrowntailWhale
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:00 am

Landing lights are NOT on the 757/767 checklist at UPS. Sounds like the crew forgot to turn them on during the descent and only noticed they were not on when close to the runway.
 
fr8mech
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting BrowntailWhale (Reply 33):
Landing lights are NOT on the 757/767 checklist at UPS.

Funny, I thought the lights were on all the fleet types. I haven't jumped on a B757/767 in several years, but spent a lot of time on the MD11 & A300. I could swera I hear lights right after the altimeters are reset.

I'll check the various AOM's on Monday.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:13 pm

Quoting Aogdesk:
Are you going to inform me next that if one of the pilots had his tongue in his cheek during the approach that would violate FAR's too??

I suspect that having your tongue in someone elses' cheek would be a violation though.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
aogdesk
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 35):
I suspect that having your tongue in someone elses' cheek would be a violation though.

We need some willing participants to test the waters and report back......any takers?  Smile
 
MDorBust
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:32 pm

Perhaps the crew had recently left the Airforce and were used to flying Baghdad approaches.  Wink
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
fr8mech
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting BrowntailWhale (Reply 33):
Landing lights are NOT on the 757/767 checklist at UPS.

From the B757/B767 AOM:

"At 18,000 feet (FL180), position wing landing light switches to on."

While not a 'checklist' item, it is an AOM procedure.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:19 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 38):

"At 18,000 feet (FL180), position wing landing light switches to on."

While not a 'checklist' item, it is an AOM procedure.

Technically, that's an ROP, not an SOP.
 
lowrider
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 36):
We need some willing participants to test the waters and report back......any takers

Only if I get to choose my study partner.
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corey07850
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:45 am

Well I've done a bunch of no-landing light approaches to touchdown in light GA aircraft just for training and what-not... Doubt this is what they were doing, but just to show that it's really no big deal to have them on---especially at larger airports with HIRL/advanced approach light systems.

For another question: Does anyone fly an aircraft with the alternating landing lights, and do they find it distracting??
 
fr8mech
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 39):
Technically, that's an ROP, not an SOP

And an 'ROP' is what?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 39):
Technically, that's an ROP, not an SOP.

Whats an R.O.P.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BAE146QT
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:12 pm

[guess mode] Recommended Operating Procedure? [/guess mode]
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airfoilsguy
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 43):
Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 39):
Technically, that's an ROP, not an SOP.

Whats an R.O.P.

It's an ROP not SOP only during IFR simply for CUA unless The CIP catches you then you are SOL ASAP
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
BAE146QT
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:31 pm

But that's only if you're carrying the VP, who is a VIP.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
aogdesk
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:25 am

Doesn't help if he happens to be an SOB.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:17 am

Well then it's just best to go MIA.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UPS 757 Landing At Night W/o Lights?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 45):
It's an ROP not SOP only during IFR

How does it Vary.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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