JetSet777
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787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:46 am

Since Boeing has decided against going with the "shark" tail for the 787, how will they deal with the image change? By now that image is pretty well synonymous with the 787.
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting JetSet777 (Thread starter):
Since Boeing has decided against going with the "shark" tail for the 787, how will they deal with the image change? By now that image is pretty well synonymous with the 787.

I'd argue the opposite, honestly. The "shark-inspired" tail fin was deleted relatively early in the program and most pictures of the plane circulated in Boeing or airline livery show the new "traditional" tail fin. So I imagine that is what most people expect to see when the 787 enters service.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:56 am

Boeing "changed" tails along time ago. More than 18 months ago. As such, all images released after that date feature the new, production-standard tail. Here's a montage of various 787 tails:

December 2002-May 2003:


May 2003-Sept 2005:
http://www.airliners.net/uf/536883978/1165956793mvea6c.jpg

September 2005-present (final):
http://www.airliners.net/uf/536883978/1165956808nOSJIq.jpg
 
JetSet777
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:02 am

Thank you for the montage. I guess this is a matter of opinion more. I still think the final picture resembles a shark fin, but I can see where it looks a lot less like one than the middle pic. The only true traditional tail I see is the original pic in the old livery. Just my opinion
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ksupilot
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting JetSet777 (Reply 3):
Thank you for the montage. I guess this is a matter of opinion more. I still think the final picture resembles a shark fin, but I can see where it looks a lot less like one than the middle pic. The only true traditional tail I see is the original pic in the old livery. Just my opinion

I agree. The final tail is not much different from the "Shark Tail". Which is also good for Boeing as very few will notice the difference.
 
N231YE
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:12 am

The flexed wings seem to be the image now. I mean, go to Boeing's website, and look at the images of the 787. Whether or not the wings will actually flex this much on the finished product I do not know, but a "graceful" image has been achieved by the flexing wings, once the job of the "shark-tail."





http://www.tmw.at/Fotoalben%5CPresse%5CSonderausstellungen%5Cairworld%5Cbilder2/Boeing%20787%20Dreamliner%20.jpg
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:16 am

I have some nieve questions about the 787:

1) about how many passengers will one seat?

2) what seat layout might one have?

3) what is the range?

4) Is it closer to the size of a 777 or 767?

I know these will sound like stupid questions to most of you, but I am just curious.

Thanks
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DfwRevolution
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
I have some nieve questions about the 787:

Check out:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/index.html
http://www.newairplane.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787

In general:

Seating- either 8 or 9 abreast in economy (2+4+2) (3+3+3) (2+5+2)

787-3/8 - 230 seats @ 8,800 nm range
787-9 - 270 seats @ 8,500 nm range
787-10 - 310 seats (likely to be launched in the next 6 months)

787-3/8 is about the size of the 767-300
787-9 is in between the A332 and A333
787-10 is about the size of the 777-200
 
N231YE
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
1) about how many passengers will one seat?

Up to 296, dependant on configuration and variant.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
2) what seat layout might one have?



Quote:
Two class configuration of 240 seats in two class domestic with 46 in (116.8 cm) first class pitch and 34 in (59.7 cm) coach class. 296 passengers can be seated in a high density 3+2+3 coach arrangement with 36 in (91.4 cm) Business and 32 in (81.3 cm) Coach pitch. Up to 234 passengers may be seated in a three-class setup that uses 61 in (154.9 cm) pitch in First Class (2+2+2 or 2+1+2), 39 in (99 cm) pitch for Business (2+3+2 or 2+2+2) and 32 in (81.3 cm) for Coach (2+4+2).



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
3) what is the range?

Up to 8,800nm, as found on the -9.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
4) Is it closer to the size of a 777 or 767?

Dependant on the variant. The larger model is closer to that of the 777, but the smaller model is near the 767.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787

[Edited 2006-12-12 22:58:18]
 
zenarcade
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:40 am

Is it just me or do all of the "artist renditions" of the 787 with the new livery make the bird look pretty terrible?

Just to stay O.T why did they decide against the shark fin?

Adam
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HAWK21M
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:36 pm

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 9):
Just to stay O.T why did they decide against the shark fin

The Current shape was more Aerodynamically Preffered.
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BAE146QT
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:04 pm

Am I the only one here that thinks the Boeing publicity shots look like screen-grabs from MS Flight Sim?

Speaking of the paint job, I would say that the shape of the blue section on the tail in "September 2005-present (final):" makes it look more like a "shark-fin" than it might otherwise.
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Starlionblue
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 11):
Am I the only one here that thinks the Boeing publicity shots look like screen-grabs from MS Flight Sim?

Yepp. As you know MS Flight Sim is also the main aerodynamic modeling too. Big grin
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BAE146QT
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:17 am

Quote:
As you know MS Flight Sim is also the main aerodynamic modeling too.

Ah now you see, that was deliberately done so that anyone with PC sim experience can land it in the event that both pilots are incapacitated. They've even provided a USB port so you can plug in a keyboard and press "Ctrl ;" to reset the flight if necessary.

Very sensible, those Boeing chaps.
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grandtheftaero
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 9):
Just to stay O.T why did they decide against the shark fin?

My simplistic understanding is that the shark fin didn't provide enough control authority and enlarging it to make it effective would have caused too great a drag penalty.

--Shane
 
grandtheftaero
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
I have some nieve questions about the 787:

The libary be two towns over and my pickup done up and quit, too bad there's no magic box I can't just type 787 into and get info. Heck if I invented sumthin like that I reckon I could get least 59,200,000 results in a fraction of a second.
 
B747FAN
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting GrandTheftAero (Reply 15):
The libary be two towns over and my pickup done up and quit, too bad there's no magic box I can't just type 787 into and get info. Heck if I invented sumthin like that I reckon I could get least 59,200,000 results in a fraction of a second

He's got the magic box, and he is typing, and he is asking questions on the FORUM instead of asking Wikipedia or Google. Interaction with like minded folks who share similar interests, is what makes FORUMS exist today. Sure the answers are available at a thousand sites on the web, but don't you think it is a lot more personal if someone answers your question directly, thereby creating dialogue in this day and age when face to face business and communication is fast fading?

It is his desire to engage in discussions to get his questions answered, not to search the web and get edited text from encylopedias etc...
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BAE146QT
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:51 am

I agree with both of you, (such discussion probably belongs in "Forum Related", though that's for the mods to decide).

Something that is easily accessible and pretty much cast in stone could probably be Googled up - as we have seen. Boeing aren't the NSA after all.

Something that relates to the intricacies of airline operations, or technical nuances really belongs here. How available is information about MD-11 tow bars? If you Googled it, what site would you be taken to? I reckon this one.

On the other hand, I have seen silly questions, which could have been asked elsewhere, posted here... and vibrant, interesting threads have resulted from them. Check my "respected users" list for the sort of person who takes such threads and runs with them.

Silly question: "How many seating and cargo arrangements did the DC3 have?"

Intersting answer: "That reminds me of when we were working the Berlin Airlift and we were asked to take in a diplomat with a parachute on his back..."
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grandtheftaero
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting B747fan (Reply 16):
It is his desire to engage in discussions to get his questions answered, not to search the web and get edited text from encylopedias etc...

What is there to discuss? The number of seats is the number of seats, the range is the range, etc, etc.

If something was asked that was worth discussing (e.g. Why did Boeing choose to build the 787 with X number of seats?) or something not readily available from millions of sources (e.g. Why did Boeing get rid of the shark tail?) then I wouldn't have said anything.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 17):
I have seen silly questions ... and vibrant, interesting threads have resulted from them

Can't argue with that one. We'll see if anything comes up from this.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting GrandTheftAero (Reply 18):
We'll see if anything comes up from this.

If so, it'll be someone from Boeing talking about something declassified - this is an airliner that doesn't exist yet after all.

At the risk of telegraphing it, I'm sure you know I was speaking in general.  Wink
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redflyer
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RE: 787 Tail Design

Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 9):
Just to stay O.T why did they decide against the shark fin?



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
The Current shape was more Aerodynamically Preffered.

I think part of it also had to do with production costs. It's more costly to manufacture a part with complex curves as opposed to straight edges.

[Edited 2006-12-14 05:36:52]
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