gkyip
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Dirty Planes!

Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:32 am

I came across this pic and it got me thinking...what is it that makes Air France planes so much dirtier than others? Is it where they fly to? Their cleaning schedule? MX issues?

Anyone got any ideas?


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kaddyuk
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Gkyip (Thread starter):
Their cleaning schedule?

Bing-O was his name-O

Lack of cleaning causes dirty aeroplanes...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:02 pm

Def Cleaning Issues added by their White Livery which gets noticed more.
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pilotpip
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:28 pm

The dirt slows them down a bit due to added drag and weight but has nothing to do with safety.

If you think that is bad you should see some cargo operations out there!
DMI
 
pilotpip
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:40 pm

Something I should have added when typing the first post...

At the flight school I used to work at we did a test course run in the same 172SP before, and after it was washed during the summer. The bugs on the on the airframe were causing a loss of about 4kts. When clean, the Katanas would indicate 3-5kts higher. Clean airplanes are fast airplanes.
DMI
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
If you think that is bad you should see some cargo operations out there

Guess a cleaning schedule of 2-3 days should be in place.Out here it is Even for Freighters  Smile
regds
MEL
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jetjack74
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
The dirt slows them down a bit due to added drag and weight but has nothing to do with safety.

Actually, cleaning the aircraft form exhaust, grease, hydralic and fuel is a part of exterior maintnence and corrosion control, so it has alot to do with safety. Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days. Bare metal aircraft are more susceptible to corrosive effects, even with the protective clear primer.
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N243NW
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Actually, cleaning the aircraft form exhaust, grease, hydralic and fuel is a part of exterior maintnence and corrosion control, so it has alot to do with safety. Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days. Bare metal aircraft are more susceptible to corrosive effects, even with the protective clear primer.

Not to mention it's a lot harder to detect possible fluid leaks on a filthy airframe.

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egnr
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Gkyip (Thread starter):
what is it that makes Air France planes so much dirtier than others?

SAS are quickly becoming a challenger to Air France's dirty aircraft crown... especially with their A340 fleet:


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JAGflyer
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:59 am

Do the airplanes get dirty when they fly into airports in Africa/Middle East? By Africa/Middle East I mean desert countries.
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gkyip
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting EGNR (Reply 8):
SAS are quickly becoming a challenger to Air France's dirty aircraft crown... especially with their A340 fleet:

WOW! That really is filthy!

How often are planes washed at airlines such as BA, LH, AC... (basically clean white lveries!)

Gary
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VC-10
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive,

Well that's news to me after nearly 30 yrs in maintenance!

All I would say is Skydrol & Titanium don't go together well.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 11):
All I would say is Skydrol & Titanium don't go together well.

Skydrol + Titanium + Higher Temperatures speed things.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 9):
Do the airplanes get dirty when they fly into airports in Africa/Middle East? By Africa/Middle East I mean desert countries

I've noticed Aircraft frm Desert regions having very Dry Wheel well areas,with a sandy effect.

regds
MEL
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zvocio79
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days. Bare metal aircraft are more susceptible to corrosive effects, even with the protective clear primer

How about engine oil........BP2380. Corrosive as well ?
VC-10 this is also new to me, but not in 30 years, only 2. imagine how corroded turbo prop aircraft are, specially high wings ones.
 
AJ
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
Clean airplanes are fast airplanes.

Or more to the point clean planes are more fuel efficient.....our fuel conservation department has increased the washing frequency of the fleet with excellent results (especially on some of the grubbier 767s).
 
gkyip
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting AJ (Reply 14):
our fuel conservation department has increased the washing frequency of the fleet with excellent results

Do dirty fuselages actually cause so much drag so that the cost of washing an airliner is more cost effective? In that case, why doesn't Air France do this?

Incidentally, how much does it cost to wash, mm say a 747?

Gary
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:18 pm

Quoting Gkyip (Reply 15):
Do dirty fuselages actually cause so much drag so that the cost of washing an airliner is more cost effective

Add even Unecessary Weight added by the dirt.
regds
MEL
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G4LASRamper
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:45 pm

Ours get pretty dirty between washings. One got dirty enough that someone used their finger to write on the belly, "Also available in white."  Smile
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kaddyuk
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days

The problem with skydrol is that it strips most protective coatings on the metal allowing other conditions to accelerate corrosion groath. It is also difficult at times to identify an old skydrol stain from a new, fresh one...

You will frequently see entries in the technical log asking for a "Tech Wash" to be carried out (with the snag normally deffered to next A check).

Some aircraft get dirtier than others, alot of the time it depends on how much the spray from runways hits the fuse...
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egnr
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Gkyip (Reply 10):
How often are planes washed at airlines such as BA, LH, AC... (basically clean white lveries!)

Some of BA's fleet get washed more often than others...

I give you G-BNWH, the B763 typically based at MAN.


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474218
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 18):
The problem with skydrol is that it strips most protective coatings on the metal allowing other conditions to accelerate corrosion groath. It is also difficult at times to identify an old skydrol stain from a new, fresh one...

While Skydrol does strip protective coatings, if they are not phosphate ester restraint, in its current form it does not cause corrosion. Some of the earlier Skydrol Types (I seem to remember Type III was really bad) did cause erosion to the internal surfaces of servos and actuators. The internal surfaces of the servos and actuators are bare uncoated aluminum and they don't corrode.
 
gkyip
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting EGNR (Reply 19):
Some of BA's fleet get washed more often than others...

I give you G-BNWH, the B763 typically based at MAN.

So does this plane get washed less often as it is based at MAN? It doesn't look too bad, just around the doors where the jetway makes contact with the fuselage is what i consider to be quite dirty.

Gary
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zvocio79
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:09 pm

How I see it is that airlines clean the aircraft for appearance....dirty on the fuselage has a very insignificant amount of drag to it, almost weightless, not effect other than the looks.
But if there is dirty on pitot or static ports, or sensors, or engine compressor, turbine disk, then that's another story. But on the fuselage it self, meaningless.
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:44 am

Also, white shows the dirt more than darker colours.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:40 pm

Cleaning once a week helps.However the schedule determines the cleaning too.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:54 am

Most informative thread! Thanks to all.

I wonder how aircraft are cleaned. The physical process, I mean. Is it just some guys with brushes on the ends of poles, or does the aircraft go through something akin to a car wash?

If there's an "airliner wash" building that is used, it must be something like a hangar with nozzles and other such mechanical assemblies installed, and it would be fun to see a video of the wash process occurring.  Smile

By the way, I would love to see a thread about the world's cleanest aircraft.
What's fair is fair.
 
dhhornet
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
I wonder how aircraft are cleaned. The physical process, I mean. Is it just some guys with brushes on the ends of poles

Yep! + Add a bit of aerokleen (a shampoo basically) and water.

2 x men take about two hours to do a A319. Window line down,engine cowlings, undercarriage doors and hub caps. Keeps you fit!

We use a pressure hose from a de-icing rig (using water!) to rinse off . Rags used for buffing up in places.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:00 am

^^ Great answer!

Why don't they mechanize the process, though? That would allow workers just to dry off the aircraft and do the detailing, just the same way that many car washes work, at least here in the U.S.

By the way, there are truck washes, too, although I don't know if they'rre fully mechanized.
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jetjack74
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 11):
Well that's news to me after nearly 30 yrs in maintenance!

Just becuase it doesn't add up as a corrosive after 30 years of maintnence, doesn't mean it isn't. Take a look at what it does to the paint. I may not have quite as many years as you, but I have a few years in aircraft maintnence. I frequently use it when servicing our squadron's aircraft(my Navy Reserve job).

Quoting Zvocio79 (Reply 13):
VC-10 this is also new to me, but not in 30 years, only 2. imagine how corroded turbo prop aircraft are, specially high wings ones.

It's hazmat. I suggest you have a look at the MSDS, (if you hve them, supposed to). According to our NATOPS manuals, (Naval Aviation Training and Operations Standards) it is listed as a paint corrosive, and as a skin irritant. It also lists PPE that is supposed to be used when handling it which is gloves, goggles, and respirator if the risk of misting occurs. That ain't exactly silly putty, is it?

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 18):
The problem with skydrol is that it strips most protective coatings on the metal allowing other conditions to accelerate corrosion groath. It is also difficult at times to identify an old skydrol stain from a new, fresh one...

 checkmark  On the underside of our aircraft, it does a number on the paint of the aircraft melting it down to the green primer which also wears away after awhile. It does corrode, which is why we wash our aircraft every 7th, 14th, and 28th to prevent things like this. We also have strict guidelines for disposal of the cans, and every can is accounted for.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
I wonder how aircraft are cleaned. The physical process

Out here its the Team of 15-20 Folks,armed with Rags & Cloth mops,using trestles & work stands.Normally takes 2 hrs for a B737.
Soap water solutions mainly used with Water.
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MEL
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TheJoe
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 28):
Just because it doesn't add up as a corrosive after 30 years of maintenance, doesn't mean it isn't. Take a look at what it does to the paint.

Yes, you're right. It is a great paint stripper but skydrol itself is not corrosive. Correct, paint is a protective coating that helps to prevent corrosion, but there are plenty of aeroplanes flying around out there that are not painted! I can think of a particular DC-3 that I work on that was built in 1942. Polished aluminium. The airframe is in great condition!

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days.

I don't think jet fuel is all that corrosive either. Otherwise it wouldn't be very good for an engine either! Imagine all the damage it could do to sensitive engine components and fuel feed lines.

Our aircraft don't get washed while they are in service and they seem to make it through to a "D" check without too many corrosion issues. I'd be more worried about coffee or coke spillages around the galley areas. I've seen entire floor beam sections replaced due to corrosion. Other areas that are susceptible to corrosion are under the entry, service and cargo door sill panels, fuel tank access panel lands, the upper wing skin and the bilge area of the aircraft. Of course, corrosion pops up different areas all the time, you've always gotta keep a good look out!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting TheJoe (Reply 30):

Ok, Thanks for the correction.
Cheers,
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting TheJoe (Reply 30):
Polished aluminium. The airframe is in great condition!

How frequent is the polishing.

Quoting TheJoe (Reply 30):
I'd be more worried about coffee or coke spillages around the galley areas

The Advantage for Freighters is Very little Corrosion from Galley & Toilet Areas,hence easier to do a Major check on.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
TheJoe
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 32):
How frequent is the polishing.

It used to be once every six or so months. The whole airframe got done, it looked fantastic! It hasn't been done for a little while now though, it's probably about time!
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Out here its the Team of 15-20 Folks,armed with Rags & Cloth mops,using trestles & work stands.Normally takes 2 hrs for a B737.

Soap water solutions mainly used with Water.

Interesting! So it's not so much different from washing a car or SUV. A very, very large car or SUV!  Smile
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
Interesting! So it's not so much different from washing a car or SUV. A very, very large car or SUV!

Its similiar.Only it gets done at night & Mx need to check for Left over Rags not removed. Smile
regds
MEL
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LimaNiner
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 27):
Why don't they mechanize the process, though?

I believe Japan Airlines put the first mechanized "drive through plane wash" into operation at Narita in 1990. Here's a link to a WikiPedia article -- unfortunately in German (I'm too lazy to translate -- look for the word "Wasch", your keyboard probably won't have the "ess-zett" in "Straße"):

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines

There's also at least one washing robot that LH apparently tried out, but doesn't use much anymore:

http://www.putzmeister.de/download/pdf/prospekt/Skywash.pdf
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:18 am

I appreciate the responses!

Upon reflection, it does seem that a mechanical wash might lack the refinement of human hands, and given the value of aircraft, even the slightest miscalibration or error could result in disaster.
What's fair is fair.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:41 pm

I guess the Odd shape of an Aircraft dampens the need for an Automation Wash.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
dhhornet
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:15 am

 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 9):
Do the airplanes get dirty when they fly into airports in Africa/Middle East? By Africa/Middle East I mean desert countries.

I would assume that kind of climate has the opposite effect. Dry sand and dust doesn't stick as well as the humid equivalent. Compare cars in Nevada to cars in Connecticut during the winter. All the humidity up here in the NorthEast makes for a greasy, sticky coating.

It is actually possible to get reasonably clean with a dust bath if there is no water available.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Dirty Planes!

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 40):
It is actually possible to get reasonably clean with a dust bath if there is no water available

Even The Wheel wells of Gulf operating Aircraft are much Drier  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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