Blackbird
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Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:19 am

I wonder if it's possible to produce a truly practical single engine jet-powered GA-plane.

Does this look like a good start?

http://www.x-plane.com/pictures/contest/chandler%20jet.png

(I didn't make this image, this was the product of a guy named Jason Chandler, an X-plane player/designer)

Andrea K
 
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Francoflier
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Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:28 am

Diamond Aircraft thinks so and is lauching the Diamondjet single engined VLJ.

Thereyago

Piper aircraft also has a single engine version of the Navajo on the paper somewhere. The engine will be located on the tail DC-10 style... looks weird...

Thereyagoagain
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N231YE
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Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 1):
Piper aircraft also has a single engine version of the Navajo on the paper somewhere. The engine will be located on the tail DC-10 style... looks weird...

Its good that you brought that up...it was all over the cover of the last Flying Magazine.

http://www.newpiper.com/piperjet/

 
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Starlionblue
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Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:43 am

Sure looks neat, but I bet the calculations for that combined nacelle/tailcone will be a bitch. Also, you are cutting off quite a bit of airflow to the engine.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SlamClick
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Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:57 am

How about one of these?

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Photo © Matthew Wallman

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N231YE
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Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
How about one of these?

I like the way you think  smile ...I had a feeling someone would post something similar
 
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Francoflier
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Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
Sure looks neat, but I bet the calculations for that combined nacelle/tailcone will be a bitch. Also, you are cutting off quite a bit of airflow to the engine.

Now that you mention it...
From an amateur glance, there sure might a problem provding the ONLY engine with enough undisturbed airflow in high angle of attack & high power scenarios (the very scenarios that are already critical enough).
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2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:55 am



It reminds me of the RFB Fantrainer:


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Photo © Jens Bettin
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Jens Bettin




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Photo © Pablo Diaz Moreda
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Photo © Sergey Riabsev - Russian AviaPhoto Team


Edit: Whoops...forgot the Fanliner concept:


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Photo © Steve Williams




2H4




[Edited 2007-01-07 01:06:58]
Intentionally Left Blank
 
QFA380
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:14 am

What about this beast.


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Photo © Neville Murphy

 
N231YE
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:25 am

While on the subject, not turbine powered, but another oddity:

The Cessna XMC:
 
futureuapilot
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:30 am

I've fueled a Jet powered Cessna 172...

-Sam
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pilotpip
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:35 am

I assume you mean that it had a diesel engine installed under an STC?
DMI
 
ATCme
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:08 am

Don't forget the Cirrus Jet, which is yet to be unveiled (mock-up or prototype), but is supposedly a single engine 4 place jet (couldn't you tell by the name- Jet?).
Also the Piper Jet was featured in Flying.

ATCme  spin 
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 11):
I assume you mean that it had a diesel engine installed under an STC?

Probably a Garrett turbine actually. There are several STCs out there for Cessnas. Much more common in a 206 & up but there are some smaller Cessnas that have been modified as well.
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atct
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:21 am

No one brought up my favorite in the single jet G/A game...



the Comp Air Jet.
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tito
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:05 am

No one has mentioned the Visionaire Vantage.
http://www.scaled.com/projects/vantage.html

 
Blackbird
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:07 am

What I was thinking of to be absolutely honest, would be a very simple, very basic Cessna 152 / Cessna 172 / Piper PA-28 Archer type of airplane, with simple old dials and gauges, cable controls, and a lightweight, basic, yet sturdy design, with speed equal to that of an MD-80/B-737.

The idea would be to keep it nice and simple, basic, easy to hand-fly, and a reasonable auto-pilot.

Andrea K
 
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
How about one of these?



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
I like the way you think smile ...I had a feeling someone would post something similar

As soon as I saw the topic I thought of the L-39. Great airplane, hopefully one day i win the lotery... untill then...
Keep the shinny side up!
 
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
What I was thinking of to be absolutely honest, would be a very simple, very basic Cessna 152 / Cessna 172 / Piper PA-28 Archer type of airplane, with simple old dials and gauges, cable controls, and a lightweight, basic, yet sturdy design, with speed equal to that of an MD-80/B-737.

The idea would be to keep it nice and simple, basic, easy to hand-fly, and a reasonable auto-pilot.

Andrea K

While I would dearly love to see an affordable jet airplane, what you suggest sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. There is a reason why single-pilot-certified jets are required to have operational autopilots and FMS.

It's not just the aircraft that are complicated and demanding in the flight levels, it's the environment. A certain degree of complexity is necessary to have a reasonable chance at a good safety record.

Just MHO.
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Dougloid
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:58 am

Gulfstream had a single engine executive jet project a while ago that never got built. It was going to be powered by a single JT15D4, which is as close to dead ass reliable as you can get.

Tito mentions the Visionaire project, and there is a prototype but the company's defunct. They built a pretty good sized building in Ames Iowa to build the thing but the project went wayyyyyyy over budget and out of time. There is a guy named Matt Eller around here who bought up everything out of the bankruptcy for about $450,000.

Here's an interesting article on what's now known as Eviation. There are plans to build it in Brazil.

http://www.eviationjets.com/01/news/022306.asp
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SlamClick
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:52 am

I posted the L-39 because whatever the factories come up with will have to compete on a cost-per-seat basis. Besides it is cool. I see one about once a month, all year long.

I still like my idea for the T-37. While it is not real pretty, I can picture it with a strong, reliable single fanjet, the two ejection seats replaced with four Recaro buckets, a modern panel, topped with a smoked canopy and a killer stereo.

Life is good!
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Francoflier
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
I still like my idea for the T-37.

You'd have a killer of a time converting that from a twin to a single...
And seeing how all the frames are now pretty old and all had a nice looooong life as trainers, it'd be like buying an overhauled driving school car.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
topped with a smoked canopy and a killer stereo.

Ok, NOW we're talking!  cool 
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 21):
You'd have a killer of a time converting that from a twin to a single...

Yes, as I typed that I realized that part - the whole interior design back there around the engines it had. Maybe a pair of smaller, more modern engines. Don't know what might work.

And yes, I'd guess they've had a hard life.
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2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:49 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
I still like my idea for the T-37. While it is not real pretty, I can picture it with a strong, reliable single fanjet, the two ejection seats replaced with four Recaro buckets, a modern panel, topped with a smoked canopy and a killer stereo.

Have you seen the Cessna 407 concept?



http://i12.tinypic.com/2n21uro.jpg






2H4


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SlamClick
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 23):
Have you seen the Cessna 407 concept?

Pretty much what I had in mind except for the solid roof, dog whistle engines, and those crappy 172 seats.

The plane appears to have a tail number of 60407. According to Baugher that would make it a canceled KC-135 or a Canadian built Helldiver.
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2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:25 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 24):
that would make it a canceled KC-135 or a Canadian built Helldiver.

...Or a far more elaborate conversion than I initially thought.  Wink


2H4


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Blackbird
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:28 am

I have nothing against a plane having a flight-management system. I'm thinking though sticking to mostly regular gauges and such would be better for student pilots who are used to Cessna's and Piper's.

How elaborate of an Autopilot and FMS is required?

-Andrea K
 
SlamClick
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:29 am

Just spent more time looking at that C-407. That thing was so fifties!

Not surprising that they dreamed it up, or that it never saw production. I remember a Brigitte Bardot movie made about the same time, where she got a ride in a Paris Jet. Even at 13 or 14 I confess I didn't look at the airplane much.  Smile
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atct
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:28 am

The Cessna 407 project was nothing more than a 4 seat Cessna T-37 Tweet.

Also along the same theme, though a twin, was the Moraine-Saulnier Paris Jet. Theres a company I know thats restoring old Paris Jets and installs a glass cockpit.

ATCT
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2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:35 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
That thing was so fifties!

Reminds me of the old fifties-era paint schemes used by Mooney and Piper back in the day. I love those.  Smile

Blackbird, be sure to check this site out when you get a chance:

http://www.machdiamonds.com/index.html


2H4


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kbfispotter
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:36 am

I have always had a fantasy about converting some random GA aircraft to jets. It could fun, although extermely impractical. Now my idea of placing a RR Allison A250 in a Cessna 150 would be a better idea. I have even gone as far as starting preliminary designs...

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 29):
Blackbird, be sure to check this site out when you get a chance:

http://www.machdiamonds.com/index.html

Did you look at the Hustler 500 concept? A PT-6-41 in the nose and a JT-15D-1 in the tail... talk about an ugly idea.

Kris
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2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:58 am




Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 30):
Now my idea of placing a RR Allison A250 in a Cessna 150 would be a better idea.

You've seen the turboprop Luscombe, haven't you?


2H4


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kbfispotter
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):
You've seen the turboprop Luscombe, haven't you?

 drool 

I have... There is just something about the A250 in a 150 that gets to me, though...

Now, I like this even more...
http://www.airliners.net/uf/536890887/11682942290ghF0b.jpg
 bouncy 

Kris
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2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:41 am




Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 32):
Now, I like this even more...

Yeah, that's a beaut.

I'd better stop now before this turns into one of those threads....  Wink


2H4


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kbfispotter
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 33):
I'd better stop now before this turns into one of those threads....

Ah, come on now, 2H4. You know you miss it...  wink 

Kris
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N231YE
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 33):
I'd better stop now before this turns into one of those threads....  

I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you give us an example?  wink 
 
KELPkid
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 32):
Now, I like this even more...

The scary thing is, from all accounts I've heard, that thing actually exists. That is a real locomotive horn on the nose gear  Wow!

Wonder what happens if you cut these guys off on short final? Do they lay on the horn until you get out of the way  Wink
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KELPkid
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 26):
I have nothing against a plane having a flight-management system. I'm thinking though sticking to mostly regular gauges and such would be better for student pilots who are used to Cessna's and Piper's.

Here's a question for you: could such a plane be made that would cost not much more than a factory new Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior? Would the fuel consumption of the jet still require Dept. of Defense levels of funding for one flight?

Also: turbine engines have on notoriously difficult phase of management: startup. Would you, for the cost of the 172 (roughly) be able to provide a turbine powerplant that was idiot-proof, so you didn't have student pilots burning up your turbine with a less-than-successfully managed hot start?
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SlamClick
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 37):
Here's a question for you: could such a plane be made that would cost not much more than a factory new Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior?

That was the entire point of my posting this picture:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matthew Wallman


I just did a quick search and found an L-39 for sale for about the price of a new Cessna 182 Turbo Skylane.

For the price of a new Beech Bonanza you could by the L-39 and fly it a thousand hours or more.
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Blackbird
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:42 am

2H4,

That is *so* totally the idea I was thinking of regarding simplicity and ordinary gauges. However I don't know if I would have used the same exact fuselage/wing-designs  

[Edited 2007-01-09 00:44:02]
 
KELPkid
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 38):
That was the entire point of my posting this picture:


I just did a quick search and found an L-39 for sale for about the price of a new Cessna 182 Turbo Skylane.

For the price of a new Beech Bonanza you could by the L-39 and fly it a thousand hours or more.

What's the fuel consumption like? How about an engine overhaul?

Could you imagine transitioning into one of these as a 100 hour PPL? You'd probably be the only PPL around with no multi-engine rating and a type rating  spin 
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SlamClick
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
What's the fuel consumption like? How about an engine overhaul?

I think I overstated the tradeoff. Probably more like several hundred hours rather than a thousand. I've been told on some authority that less than a thousand dollars an hour DOC is reasonable.

Overhaul? I have no idea. Possibly they don't even do that - just replace them with one out of Europe. I don't know. I don't think many are "normal" category.
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KELPkid
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 41):
I don't know. I don't think many are "normal" category.

AFAIK, all of them in the US are registered as experimentals...however, you need a LOA (letter of authorization) to fly one. I think you can get the training involved for the LOA from the warbird school at SAF, and I've heard there's a guy out of Van Nuys, CA who can also do it.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 41):
. I've been told on some authority that less than a thousand dollars an hour DOC is reasonable.

Definitely puts it out of the reach of most of us, then  Smile I'm sure there's a few people in here that can afford to punch holes in the sky for $1k/hr., but I'm not one of them.
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2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:37 pm




Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 34):
Ah, come on now, 2H4. You know you miss it...



Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 34):
I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you give us an example?

Oh, you'll see plenty of examples in the next contest this spring or summer....  Wink Until then, I'm getting my fix gathering devious photos....

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 36):
Wonder what happens if you cut these guys off on short final? Do they lay on the horn until you get out of the way

I'd be more concerned with what's in the gun rack that's surely mounted behind the pilot....

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 37):
Would you, for the cost of the 172 (roughly) be able to provide a turbine powerplant that was idiot-proof, so you didn't have student pilots burning up your turbine with a less-than-successfully managed hot start?

Wouldn't it just be a matter of spec'ing appropriate FADEC electronics? Based on the procedures I've seen for some modern corporate jets, it's never been simpler to start modern jet engines.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):

It's not just the aircraft that are complicated and demanding in the flight levels, it's the environment. A certain degree of complexity is necessary to have a reasonable chance at a good safety record.

I'm not sure Blackbird was suggesting the aircraft would be intended for the flight levels. If the target buyers/pilots are student pilots currently flying Cessnas and Pipers, I suspect she had similar flight regimes in mind. In other words, just because the aircraft would utilize a jet engine doesn't mean it will be operating alongside other jets at altitude. Whether operating it in such a manner would prove to be economically feasible is another question altogether...

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 39):
That is *so* totally the idea I was thinking of regarding simplicity and ordinary gauges.

If simplicity is what you're after in a minijet, it doesn't get much simpler than the Sipa S-200:






2H4


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atct
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:53 pm

Gotta love the Helio Stallion, a beautiful aircraft. Gets off the ground in no time!

Isnt there a Czech company making a single engine turboprop and jet?
(note: not Aero Vochody L39 makers....not sure on spelling)


ATCT

[Edited 2007-01-09 04:54:50]
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N231YE
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 43):
If simplicity is what you're after in a minijet, it doesn't get much simpler than the Sipa S-200:

I think we may have a tie here, the Microjet 200:


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Photo © AirNikon

 
2H4
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:01 pm




Quoting ATCT (Reply 44):
Isnt there a Czech company making a single engine turboprop and jet?
(note: not Aero Vochody L39 makers....not sure on spelling)

Actually, I believe the Ae-270 is manufactured by the same Aero:


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Piotr Biskupski





...and there's always the Czech Zlin Z-137T Agro-Turbo:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Rybka




2H4


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atct
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:02 pm

The Bede 5 "J" (not the prop shown above) was a very simple machine mechanically, but a very complex machine to fly due to its characteristics. Very fast and very squirelly.
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 42):
AFAIK, all of them in the US are registered as experimentals...however, you need a LOA (letter of authorization) to fly one. I think you can get the training involved for the LOA from the warbird school at SAF, and I've heard there's a guy out of Van Nuys, CA who can also do it.

GAD is where a lot of people train on the L-39. They also do lots of maintenance and sales on them as well.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 42):
Definitely puts it out of the reach of most of us, then Smile I'm sure there's a few people in here that can afford to punch holes in the sky for $1k/hr., but I'm not one of them.

$750/hr plus fuel at GAD for flight training. Ground training's only $75/hr though.

I live about 1/2 south of GAD and it's a fun place to go by on the weekends. It's not at all unusual to have several L-39s in the air at the same time.
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Pilawt
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RE: Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?)

Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:09 pm

Don't forget the Gulfstream American Peregrine from 1983.

-- Pilawt

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