sacamojus
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:24 am

Gear Before Flaps

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:00 pm

I only fly two to three times per year so I am not an expert. I flew MCO to MHT with WN on Jan. 1st for a little skiing. As we were approaching MHT the gear came down before the any flaps were deployed. This is a first for me and was wondering if this was a normal procedure? Thanks
 
paparadzi
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:16 pm

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:10 pm

On a normal approach the flaps are selected first before the landing gear. For example on the B734 flaps 1 and 5 are selected, then landing gear down, then flap 15 and 30/40 (landing flaps). But sometimes when you're too high on the profile, the landing gear can be lowered early to create extra drag.
Rules are made for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.
 
andz
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RE: Gear Before Flaps

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:17 pm

I know that there is a maximum speed for gear extended, would your average airliner easily get below that speed on descent without the use of flaps?
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting Andz (Reply 2):
I know that there is a maximum speed for gear extended, would your average airliner easily get below that speed on descent without the use of flaps?

744 Gear Extend 270-.82 M
Gear Extended 320-.82 M

Flap Limit
1 - 280 KIAS
5 - 260
10- 240
20- 230
25- 205
30- 180

If you find yourself fast or high, lowering the landing gear is a good way to correct.
Fly fast, live slow
 
andz
Posts: 7626
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RE: Gear Before Flaps

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:42 pm

Thanks Phil great answer.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:42 pm

Our speeds for the ERJ:

*Vlo (up) - 200 kts* extra info for ya
Vlo (down) - 250 kts
Vle - 250 kts

Max Altitude for flap extension: FL200
Vfe9 - 250 kts
Vfe18 - 200 kts
Vfe22 - 200 kts
Vfe45 - 145 kts (non-XR) 160 kts (XR)

Speedbrake - no speed limit

A normal profile for us landing is:
Flaps 9 - slow to 180 kts... then
Gear down/Flaps 22 (at same time) - slow to 140 kts.... then
Flaps 45 - slow to target

-Chris
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
aa87
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:58 pm

Had that experience on AA MD-80 into ORD. Asked the pilot, first he was impressed I noticed ... and said arrival sequence changed, they had to add drag to descend while keeping their groundspeed up.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Sacamojus (Thread starter):
As we were approaching MHT the gear came down before the any flaps were deployed.



Quoting AA87 (Reply 6):
and said arrival sequence changed, they had to add drag to descend while keeping their groundspeed up.

I fly WN a lot and it's a common event. The gear is often times lowered first to create drag and slow/maintain airspeed on a descent.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:00 am

On some aircraft, it's standard procedure to lower the gear before the flaps, e.g.; the E-120.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
I fly WN a lot and it's a common event. The gear is often times lowered first to create drag and slow/maintain airspeed on a descent.

Notice the same thing. Especially when we are a bit behind on long flights. Not sure if it is a relevant amount, but would seem to make up some time.
Fly CHD!
 
rootsair
Posts: 4012
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RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:33 am

It happened when I flew from AMS to GVA last agust after a day of spotting in aMS.
It was an EasyJet flight. The funny aprt is that Alphafloor and I saw the pilot as we got out of the airport and we made him the comment . He sais "Ah, well noticed"
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
n484er
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:32 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:41 am

This is not an airliner but when I fly the Piper Seminole, we usually extend the landing gear first to slow us down below Vfe.
 
bomber996
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Sacamojus (Thread starter):
MHT with WN on Jan. 1st for a little skiing

What skiing? This warm weather is killing the skiing in New Hampshire. I hope it gets colder, this lack of snow is ridiculous.  Angry

Peace  box 
Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
sacamojus
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:24 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 12):
What skiing? This warm weather is killing the skiing in New Hampshire. I hope it gets colder, this lack of snow is ridiculous.

We went to Loon and Bretton Woods. It was pretty good but they didn't have all the trails open. Besides, I am from Florida so it was just nice to escape the balmy weather we are having.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 12):
This warm weather is killing the skiing in New Hampshire. I hope it gets colder, this lack of snow is ridiculous.

It's the climate change caused by all those WN flights...  Wink
Everyone born after 1980 (or so) should buy property in Northern Canada / Europe; by the time we retire it;s nice and warm over there Big grin
 
N243NW
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:28 pm

From a pax point of view, you can REALLY tell the instant the gear comes out on the Embraers. Talk about wind noise and vibration!

I've flown on quite a few EMB-145s and usually the gear comes down at the same time as either Flaps 22 or Flaps 45.

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 5):
Vfe45 - 145 kts (non-XR) 160 kts (XR)

Wow...I had no idea that the limit was this low. What would be a typical apprach speed on the EMB at normal landing weights? Must be quite slow.

-N243NW Big grin
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting N243NW (Reply 15):
Wow...I had no idea that the limit was this low. What would be a typical apprach speed on the EMB at normal landing

ERJ landing speeds are about 130 kts. I'm not quite sure how they get that low since ERJs don't have slats, efficient wing design I guess. CRJs tend to have a higher approach speed around 140kts because of the missing slats.
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting N243NW (Reply 15):
What would be a typical apprach speed on the EMB at normal landing weights? Must be quite slow.

Our usual target speed flaps 45/average landing weights tend to trend in the mid/upper 120's to low 130's....

Flaps 22 landings add 15 kts to Flaps 45 Vref for that weight and you have its target...

Chris
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
N243NW
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:10 pm

Thanks guys. I keep forgetting that the EMB doesn't have slats. I've also experienced a Flaps 22 landing and it did seem quite fast.

-N243NW Big grin
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
flyer737sw
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:54 pm

This exact thing happened on our flight today going into San jose from Burbank(flt#1953)...The max gear extended speed is higher than that of a 1-5 degree flap setting...I believe on the 737-700 the max gear extended speed (Vlo) is 270KIAS while the max extended flap setting for 1-5 degrees is 250KIAS...So I am sure there speed was over 250, so the crew extended the gear to bleed off that excess airspeed till it dropped below 250, then they can start to extend the flaps...The flight was running about 10-15 minutes late on the depature end, but after getting a couple of direct intersections requests and a faster decent rate (I'm sure thats the reason for the gear comming down first)the crew was able to make up about 10 minutes which put us into the gate about 2 minutes late...I also noticed that the speed brakes were used on almost the whole decent...There is absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing, its just they are tryin to convience you the passenger, for another ontime flight!!!

Kev
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
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RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:19 pm

I've had it happen before on approaches into PHL. As you know PHL is pretty well congested and approaches can be altered in any ways depending on a/c size. Note: I fly through PHL 3 times a year.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
jpdflymhtmlb
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:47 pm

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting Sacamojus (Thread starter):
I flew MCO to MHT with WN on Jan. 1st for a little skiing.

I hope you brought your golf clubs too...I left Cannon Mt on Jan 1, and it snowed 8 inches up there that day, but a couple days later when I was in Manchester, rain decimated any snow we had down south, not sure about up north...and when I left for MCO on the 5th, it was a balmy 40 degrees in the morning...

Fly
Landings are just controlled crashes.
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:03 am

The gear can be used to bleed off excess speed.

This was more common in the old-days of prop flight, many aircraft often did use the gears as brakes, some of the ones with reversable props used reverse pitch in the air to slow down (for quick descents usually). The use of landing-gears for breaking was also to an extent used during the early jet era, since there was no 250-kt restriction below 10,000 feet, jetliners would often fly in at 320 - 350 knots.
-The 707 had speedbrakes and could deploy them, with throttles retarded down to 270-knots, hit the gear, retract the brakes along the way add a little power once slow enough, and then start lowering the flaps for landing.
-The DC-8 didn't have speedbrakes, so they would either wait until they slowed to 320-knots, or engage the reversers to speed up the process, then once at desired speed take her out of reverse, and then lower the gear (which was sturdier than the 707's). Once slow enough to extend the flaps, start configuring.
-The Convair 880 had powerful spoilers which could deploy up to 60-degrees to help slow down at high-speeds. It's main gears could also be extended using a lever behind the speedbrake lever, for use as brakes. The CV-880 always came in hot, usually around 400 knots, often well into the downwind leg, before chopping power to idle, and extending the gears, raising spoilers as necessary (rarely needed), speed would fall off pretty quick, and it wouldn't be long before they'd increase power a bit, and then start configuring for landing.

And it happens modern day sometimes with international airports like Tokyo Narita, London Heathrow (when traffic is light), and London Gatwick (when traffic is light), and into Stockholm Arlanda (when traffic is light), there is no speed restriction, and planes often come in fast, and probably climb-out fast if allowed. Modern jetliners like the older ones can often fly in at 320-350 kts (375-kts maximum for the 747-200) at low altitudes without major difficulty. Modern jets usually have more spoilers than the older jets (with the exception of the CV-880 though), which helps slow down quicker, but usually once you get slow enough to hang something out, it's either the highest flap setting or two, or the gear, (which in any case usually comes down fairly early on a fast approach). With gears down, drag increases dramatically allowing rapid deceleration.

Andrea K
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:34 am

hello there, did this coming from Munich 2 days ago, it was my leg and we were on a downwind for 24 in istanbul and the controller asked if we could take an early turn onto final and save about 15 mins of vectoring, we were at 12,000 and we had to get down to 3,000 for the final, so i turned to the captain and kinda asked/told him, gear down and V/S her to final?

he goes....your leg and gives me the knod lol it was awesome....putting the gear down at 12,000 must have made some people turn heads at the back, the 737 requires about 1 minute and 15 seconds OR 7.5 miles to slow down from 320 knots to 230 knots where we can put down flaps, we were at around 270 all the way down, she bleeds off airspeed like a BRICK...

i prefer putting gear down to speedbrakes, it rattles the airframe too much and people freak out in the back

no one freaks out when the gear comes down though, they like that LOL...

summary = gear down = greater V/S without speeding up = make our descent point

anyone who flies into istanbul as crew will know it's one of the toughest airports because there is no select system of vectoring  Wink
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
JAGflyer
Posts: 3453
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:21 am

Some airlines have different precedures. I know for example I notice LOT and Alitalia 767s frequently extend their gear early (shortly before they get on the ILS path). Maybe the pilots just like to fly fast and are hurrying to slow the plane down. They do have some flap but those 2 airlines have a habit of lowering the gear earlier.
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:37 am

Besides placarded gear and flap speeds there are a couple of lesser, but significant considerations.

Passenger comfort: Extending gear at high speeds may cause a lot of noise and burble. We will do it if we need to get down quickly but it is a little rougher ride than I would prefer to offer.

Airframe life: Extended flaps at the highest possible speed undoubtedly causes minor damage over time - vibration cracks and that sort of thing. Landing gear is a bit more robust if you have to abuse it a little.

On A-320 series you can expedite a descent by punching off the autopilot and hand-flying for a minute. With the autopilot ON, you only get half the deployment on the spoilers. Amazingly, lots of Airbus pilots have forgotten this from their ground school.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
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RE: Gear Before Flaps

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:36 am

You didn't mention what type of airplane you were in, but in the ERJ sometimes the gear are extended early to burn off excess fuel. The ERJ has a fairly low maximum gross landing weight, and that number is the limiting factor for takeoff weight on the majority of its flights. Extending gear and adding flaps early will obviously increase fuel burn. Even in those cases the flaps are usually extended to 9 degrees at about the same time as the gear is lowered since they have the same speed limitation.
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Gear Before Flaps

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 8):
On some aircraft, it's standard procedure to lower the gear before the flaps, e.g.; the E-120.

Sorry man, standard procedure in the E-120 is flaps first. We often put the gear down first though to slow down.

[Edited 2007-01-10 18:43:12]
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