JAGflyer
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Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:28 pm

Whats it like to have to overwing B737, 757, etc? I can't imagine putting 20,000 litres in at slow speeds.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:36 pm

Well I have not over winged a airliner... I have over winged an An-2 those are a pain to do, takes about 800 liters on the top wing, with a ladder that has to be balanced on the leading edge with the wind blowing the a/c around. Also filling up a turbine beaver on floats, on land and doing the tip tanks is also a bit of a bitch. Takes only 300 liters for those tip tanks but those can be the longest 300 liters of your fueling days.
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pilotpip
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:01 pm

Overwinged a convair 580 a few times. That sucks. Not fun putting in 1400usg that way. You can go full throttle the whole time but it's still not as fast as singlepointing it. Also put a few hundred gallons into a DC-8 overwing. That was interesting because I had to sit on top of the wing and was amazed at how big that thing was. It's a perspective you usually don't get.
DMI
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:16 pm

I like fueling MU-2s. Its easier to double hose it. (2 people, 2 hoses 1 wing per wing). Anyone who has fueled an MU-2 knows the wing moves a good 1-1.5 feet down as you fuel it, and FAST. If your not careful you'll get the ladder stuck between the tip and the ground. Even funnier is when the new guy forgets to release the pressure before taking the cap off. The result is a fountain of Jet-A.

[Edited 2007-01-21 05:18:27]
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Thread starter):
Whats it like to have to overwing B737, 757, etc? I can't imagine putting 20,000 litres in at slow speeds.

Never done that in my 18 years in Aviation So far.Not on the B737/757.
What could compell one to use the overwing fuel port on a B737/B757,rather than replace the Valve/processor,unless one is stuck out in a remote Airport.

Anyone done that on these types.
regds
MEL
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jamesbuk
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:18 pm

All of you guys say that overwing fueling is really slow and can take hours on end or atleast feel like it, so how do they fuel an aircraft quickly? and at what rate does the fuel go in?

Rgds --James--
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:03 pm

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5):
so how do they fuel an aircraft quickly? and at what rate does the fuel go in?

With one refueller and two hoses we can refuel at about 3500litres/minute on a large multi tanked aircraft. A refuel valve will take about 900litres/minute. Unless you are going for fuel loads of over around 140tons it is not worth connecting a second dispenser. To fuel a B777 with 90000litres takes about 40minutes with one truck.

I have worked on the ramp now since 1971, on large jet aircraft, and have never overwing refuelled. I have manually refuelled a few times, by opening the refuel valves by hand, but very rarely.
 
bomber996
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:40 pm

The biggest I've ever filled up over wing is an EMB-120 or G-I. Single point really does come in handy, especially when your doing it by yourself. ALOT faster.

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futureuapilot
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:56 am

I have had to overwing a NW Saab 340. Wasn't too bad after we found a ladder...

-Sam
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5):
All of you guys say that overwing fueling is really slow and can take hours on end or at least feel like it, so how do they fuel an aircraft quickly?

In order to fuel and a/c quickly you hook up to the a/c using a single point connection. I have fueled up Buffalos, Cormorants, Citations, Sky Crains etc. with this and it really works well. It took me less time to fill up the Buffalo then to fill up Cessna 414.


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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:45 am

We'll occasionally have our single point deferred on the CRJ. Luckily we usually take around 6000-8500 pounds of fuel for most flights and land with around 2400-3500 most of the time. Not "too" much to put in.

I would have hated to been a fueler doing overwing on us with the ORF to MSP leg I did yesterday. Release fuel was 11,300. Winds aloft were up to 180 knots... 3 hours 38 minutes cooped up in a CRJ... poor passengers.
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SlamClick
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:20 am

Not any jet transports that I can recall, but CV-440/580, P-2V Neptune, PBY Catalina, G-1 including a bottle of biocidal additive, B-26, DC-4, many DC-3s.

I didn't do the fueling but I had to have my DC-9 serviced overwing because some airport did not have a singlepoint nozzle yet. We were only taking a couple hundred gallons a side anyway so it was not too bad for them.


Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
Also filling up a turbine beaver on floats

The US Army used to have a DHC-3 Otter on amphibious floats at Fort Rucker. When that thing was sitting on its wheels it was almost out of ground effect! The top deck of the floats was nearly seven feet off the ground. Of course the fueler could stand on that to service the three fuselage tanks and it didn't have anything in the wings but I used to wonder how anyone ever got up there to remove snow or something.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
The US Army used to have a DHC-3 Otter on amphibious floats at Fort Rucker. When that thing was sitting on its wheels it was almost out of ground effect! The top deck of the floats was nearly seven feet off the ground. Of course the fueler could stand on that to service the three fuselage tanks and it didn't have anything in the wings but I used to wonder how anyone ever got up there to remove snow or something.

It sounds like the Otter and the Beaver are very much alike. The Beaver also has the three fuel tanks on the port side of the aircraft. Those are one of my least favourite tanks to fill up. You have to go at it really slowly because the fuel has a tendency of backing up the line. Jet-A all over you is not a nice way to start your day. The tip tanks where not filled up as often however, but when one of the turbine Beavers called and asked for all 5 tanks to be filled up, you usually gave it about 30 minutes, where regular cessnas would take about 2 minutes if they had an account. Now for the tip tanks I do not know exactly how tall the wings are, but the owners of the aircraft had one of the biggest ladders I have ever seen to fill that plane up. One of the worse memories I have had with that thing is filling it up in about 10 knot winds while they were spraying down the a/c. All in all as much as I disliked there Beaver, they also had a P-51, two C-185s and a falcon (that did not really come in that much). I knew them pretty well by the time I left. Just before I left I actually got in a dog fight with the P-51 while I was in a C-152, I made a trip report of it here. Pilot Report: Dog Fight W/ P-51 In A C152 (by ZBBYLW Nov 1 2006 in Trip Reports)
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SlamClick
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 12):
Just before I left I actually got in a dog fight with the P-51 while I was in a C-152, I made a trip report of it here.

Coolness! And you've got me beat. My best impromptu dogfight was between San Diego and San Clemente Island in W291. I was flying a C-402 and met an S-3A Viking at my level. As we passed head-to-head, wings abreast we rolled in toward each other. We went one full horizontal circle but it was not yet clear who had the advantage. I was capable of turning tighter but he was still slowing. Anyway neither of us had the time or fuel to go any longer but I'm sure it left as big a smile on the S-3 pilot as it did on me.

I flew the piston engine Beavers with the tip tanks. These were landplanes and we had platforms we'd roll up under each wing for servicing the tip tanks as full tanks was the standard fuel load.
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KELPkid
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5):
All of you guys say that overwing fueling is really slow and can take hours on end or atleast feel like it, so how do they fuel an aircraft quickly? and at what rate does the fuel go in?

Rgds --James--

To put some things into perspective:

Most line personnel hold the fuel hose over their shoulder, as most private aircraft owners don't like the paint on the wing/fuselage/tiptank/whatever scuffed up by the hose. Jet-A hoses tend to be much heavier for whatever reason than the avgas hose...(probably so you can pump it quicker and run it under higher pressure for single-point  Wink ). The particular FBO that I worked for emphasized that the nozzle alone on our Jet-A truck weighed ~35 lbs, not to mention the 50 lb. single point nozzle (at least you didn't have to hold that one over your shoulder  Wink ). The weight bearing down on you while you pump the fuel sucks...then add on top of that doing other misc. tasks like watching for fuel imbalances on types that are sensitive to it (Lear, MU-2, etc), and maybe throw in managing Prist cans on top of that...you get the picture  Smile

Overwing fueling with Jet-A is not so bad on smaller low wing types with no quirky issues-give me King Airs and Citations all day!  Smile
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jetstar
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:36 am

Try over wing fueling a Lockheed JetStar from a single hose line. The JetStar has 6 fuel tanks, 4 mains in the wing and 2 additional auxiliary fuel tanks on the wings. When fueling from a single hose, first one inboard main is fueled, then the opposite side inboard main, then the outboard main and then the opposite side outboard main and then the aux tanks. Reaching all the tanks, especially the main wing tanks required a 5 foot ladder.

Only the JetStar 2 had a factory installed single point system, there was an STC for older JetStars to install this system, but neither of the JetStar’s I was with had it.

On numerous occasions when we went into smaller airports, the FBO’s fuel trucks usually had one over the wing hose and one single point hose. Normally they would send out 2 trucks so over wing refueling was much easier. Sometimes only one truck was available and I had to make sure the refuelers used the proper sequence. Also I had to make sure they placed a rubber mat down on the wing so when they dragged the fuel hose on the wing it didn’t scratch the paint or cut the deicer rubber boots. I would hope the refueler was not having a bad day if they had to refuel the airplane by themselves and more than one time I have heard some nasty cursing when it was a cold and windy day and it took 20 minutes to fuel the airplane single handed.

One time at one FBO at a smaller airport, their large jet fuel truck was out of service and all they had was a 1000 gallon jet fuel truck, it was half full when he started and after emptying it he had to go to the fuel farm and top off. He was surprised when he emptied it again and had to go back and top off a second time, we wound up taking on about 2000 gallons that day, needless to say he was not a happy camper. I wanted to give him a tip but I was with the Chief Pilot, or should I say the Cheap Pilot and he did not want to tip him.

The best places were FBO’s like Flower Aviation in Salina Kansas, we would call in on the Unicom about 100 miles and give them the fuel load. When we parked on the ramp they had 2 trucks, each with 2 over wing hoses and 4 refuelers with ladders and hoses already extended and as soon as we shut down they started refueling. The fuel load was always top the mains and X amount in the aux tanks. Once the mains were toped off, they added the aux amount and had a charge slip out to us before the aux tanks were already filled. They also emptied our trash, replenished our ice and cleaned the windshields and we were in and out of there in less the 15 minutes.

JETSTAR TRIVIA

One trick to get more fuel into the JetStar was to jack the nose up a little. We carried a small flat 10 ton wheel jack in case a tire had to be changed, every once in a while we had a trip that was questionable if we could make in nonstop, we would jack the nose wheels off the ground about 3 inches and could usually get in another 100 or more gallons of fuel. This was usually the difference between a non-stop and having to make a fuel stop enroute.
 
CRJonBeez
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:44 pm

i had to overwing a B752 due to remote location and lack of MX. thankfully, it wasn't going too far, so i was able to put it all in the right wing and transfer afterwards.

Quoting FutureUApilot (Reply 8):
I have had to overwing a NW Saab 340. Wasn't too bad after we found a ladder...

that's the one plane on our field that i HAVEN'T had to overwing!

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 6):
I have manually refuelled a few times, by opening the refuel valves by hand, but very rarely.

bleh. worst thing ever. i had to fill out a ton of paperwork when a manual refuel was required. they wanted to know what i did prior. what buttons and switches i hit. how much fuel i got in before i had to switch. how many times did i try and reset the fuel panel. did i test all the indicators? did i try it while doing cartwheels in my boxers and drinking from a juice box? it got ridiculous! i hate the politics.

it seems that many of the people that write those manuals have never been standing out there actually trying to do these jobs. i know for a fact that some have not, simply because i've listened to these instructors from XYZ Airlines try and explain what you're to do. when you ask them what they think you should do if this or that goes wrong, they just stutter!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting CRJonBeez (Reply 16):
i had to overwing a B752 due to remote location and lack of MX

There is no real need to overwing a B757. Put the flaps down and you can see the refuel valves on the rear spar. You just turn the knurled knob to open them. The centre tank ones are in the right wheel well. Just keep watching the gauges, or you will get a spill.
You need a pair of grips, and although they turn easily, it is the last turn with the grips that gets them open.
But the usual problem on a B757 not accepting fuel is that the overfill protection is stuck on. Try holding the overfill reset button pressed in. Often works. If you need to keep it held in for the whole refuel, get an empty metal tube of shell water detectors from the bowser driver. Bend it slightly and you can jam on the button!
 
CRJonBeez
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:57 am

i should have been a bit more specific with my comment. i couldn't use the single point due to remote location and lack of competent MX crews. when they had MX HQ on the phone, they told them to do exactly that. drop the flaps and operate the valves from behind. it was taking such a long time to deal with i told the mechanic, "to hell with it" and refuelled while sitting on the wing.

i must say, it was a long tedious job, but i enjoyed it. it's not every day you can say you've stood on the wing of a 757!  highfive 
 
vc10
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:39 am

I have overwing refuelled a Connie a few times with up to 5820 Us gals in 6 tanks. It is not too bad as you get to sit down, however you either get cold and wet, or you feel like a hamburger on a griddle.

It was always dangerous when the wing was wet especiallywhen you got out to the "A" tanks as it was a long way down from there if you slipped.

Mind you that was less strenuous that re-oiling the engines with a bucket, and we used to wait until we could get a drum's full 55 US gals into the engines, which was quite often as each engine had a 50 gal oil tank, and the engines would use say 1 to 2 gals an hour each.

Those were the days

Littlevc10
 
memphis
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RE: Ever Overwing Fueled A Large Plane?

Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5):


so how do they fuel an aircraft quickly? and at what rate does the fuel go in?

It would take around 10-12 minutes to fuel single point on an CRJ, this includes getting to the A/C, hooking up to it, fueling, and breaking it down, so about 4-8 minutes of actual pumping. An A-320 took around 15-30 minutes, depending on fuel load, so about 30 minutes to bring the wings up to max, 13,800 lbs a side, and a say 1,000lbs in the center (MEM-LAX). It was about the same amount of time for a 757, they usually wanted somewhere around 14,000lbs a side. (MEM-MSP) The A330, (MEM-AMS) usally wanted 125,000-130,000lbs, and would take right at 45-50 minutes to fuel. The DC-10 (which was awesome) would usually take around 150,000-180,000lbs, would take right at 50 min-1 hour, once there was a little over 200,000lbs on board by the time I was done.  The A-330/DC-10 gate had a "wide-body" fuel cart that pumped the fuel much quicker than the regular wide-body gates. We usually put around 22,000-25,000 U.S. gallons on the DC-10. Oh yeah, I have never overwinged a big jet.

[Edited 2007-01-23 12:18:19]
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