asianguy767
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A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:35 pm

I wonder if anyone here can shed some light on the performance of these two birds. I know the A343 has slightly longer range capabilities and the design also incorporated crew bunks, but with its not so favourable fuel burn performance, is the MD11ER better?
 
LXA340
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:08 pm

The A340-300 has a lower fuel consumption and also generates about half the approach noise of the MD-11. Also in maintanac terms it is more efficient and needs to be overhauled less. Regarding the cabin itself the MD11 compared to the A343 is like day and night. The A343 flies really nice and smooth and the noise is very low. Although the A343 wasn't really such a great successs as the 777's for instance compared to the MD11 look how many were built and are still around as passenger aircraft.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Asianguy767 (Thread starter):
I know the A343 has slightly longer range capabilities

The MD-11ER has a range of 7220nm while the basic A340-313X range is 7200nm, but it can be pushed to 7400nm with an auxiliary tank.
 
CV990
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:15 pm

Hi!

I flew both airplanes, with SWISS. ZRH/LAX in a MD11 ( HB-IWM ) and LAX/ZRH in a A343 ( HB-JMC ) and like LXA340 said it's har to compare both airplanes. The MD11 had a wider configuration, 3-4-2 against 2-4-2 of the A343, the entertainment in the Airbus was very cool indeed, but we have to understand that the MD11 came more than 10 years earlier. But for me the biggest difference was infact the performance of the MD11....that plane was very, very powerfull, I remember when we took off from ZRH, we had a full load plane to LAX, at that time the longest flight from Europe, full load of fuel ( it took us 12:45 to get there, including some strong headwinds, etc. etc....) and even like that our plane just left pretty well, the typical vortex generation from the tip of the wings and engines was there and all I can say is that I had a wonderfull trip. The return was much more "calm", our Airbus 340 just took all it's time of the world to take off LAX, then slowly started to climb until we got to our FL. The full flight was very, very smooth and the landing was also very cool. So resuming I could say the MD11 was the race/wild one, the A343 the calm, still, soft one.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
rootsair
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 3):
MD11 came more than 10 years earlier

Nope, The MD11 first flew in March 1990 and the A343 first flew in october 1991

Quoting CV990 (Reply 3):
performance of the MD11....that plane was very, very powerfull, I remember when we took off from ZRH, we had a full load plane to LAX

no doubt about that. he MD11 is just soo more powerul than the A340 . The 343 has soo much trouble climbing..no wonder given is hairdryer engines !
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
CV990
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:04 pm

Hi RootsAir.

When I talked about the age of the MD11 and the A343 I was thinking about SWISS ones, but I actually didn't wrote that!!! But you're right they came pretty close one to the other.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 4):
Nope, The MD11 first flew in March 1990

 no  That was January 10th, 1990. See below:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peachair



Cheers.
 
rootsair
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 6):
That was January 10th, 1990. See below:

Ok guess Wikipedia is wrong then

The MD-11 program was launched on December 30, 1986, with orders and commitments for 92 aircraft from 12 airlines and leasing companies. Assembly of the MD-11 began on March 9, 1988, with the first flight of an MD-11F (freighter version) on March 10, 1990. FAA certification was achieved by November 8, 1990.

[Edited 2007-01-26 12:47:08]
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
rootsair
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
When I talked about the age of the MD11 and the A343 I was thinking about SWISS ones, but I actually didn't wrote that!!! But you're right they came pretty close one to the other.

Oh ok I see. HoweverI don't think 343's Swiss has are much different from the very first 343's
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
pelican
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 4):
he 343 has soo much trouble climbing..no wonder given is hairdryer engines !

Well, below FL10 it out climbs a 744.

pelican
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 7):
Ok guess Wikipedia is wrong then

Many have quoted Wikipedia on this forum, and very often the encyclopedia was wrong or not kept up to date. Too bad, could be a good tool otherwise.
 
LXA340
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:02 pm

As the MD11 is a very powerfull bird it is probably the reason it is very successfull as a freighter. I gues when it comes to the Passenger question the A340 wins by far. however I gues as a freighter the A340 would be inferior compared to the MD11.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 11):
As the MD11 is a very powerfull bird it is probably the reason it is very successfull as a freighter.

On the matter of power, the MD-11 is equipped with engines capable of 60 to 62,000lbs of maximum thrust. The A343 engines are capable of 31 to 34,000lbs. Obviously, the trijet is more peppy. It can be a real elevator on take off.
 
EGBJ
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:26 pm

It seems the MD-11 is a very sound aeroplane. Why then were only 136 built??
 
keego
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 13):
It seems the MD-11 is a very sound aeroplane. Why then were only 136 built??

No demand, At the time the 767 was out and the 777 was on its way. These are much easier to maintain as they have only 2 engines. A big problem with the tri-jets is that the no2 engine is up in the tail and hard to get to when checks and repairs need to be carried out so airlines stuck with the twinjets which could do the same job.
 
EFHK
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:37 pm

Also, A340 is a bit slower than M11.
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.
 
columba
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:48 pm

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 13):
It seems the MD-11 is a very sound aeroplane. Why then were only 136 built??

In the beginning the MD 11 did not perform as good as it was promised. MDD could fix all these bugs later but as Boeing took over MDD they stopped the production since they did not want a competitioner for their own 777.
Maybe if Boeing did not take over MDD in the early 90s we would have seen more than 136 MD 11s being build. Definitetly not as much as A330/A340 and 777s but enough especially as a freighter we could have seen another 100 aircraft and maybe some more passenger aircraft as well. Maybe MDD also could have sold some more MD 90s and MD 95s to grace our skies............. Skies would be little bit more interesting with MDD being around
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
WINGS
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:50 pm

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 13):
It seems the MD-11 is a very sound aeroplane. Why then were only 136 built??

Hi EGBJ,

200 frames of the MD11 were built. If we include the DC10/MD11 family then the figure rises up to 646 frames. While it may not be considered a runaway success the DC10/MD11 family did rather well. It also had to battle, with other airplanes such as the L1011, A343, B772.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
EGBJ
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:59 pm

Roger that...thanks for the explanation guys  Smile
 
Qantas744er
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
Well, below FL10 it out climbs a 744.

Not quite.. the power to weight ratio on the 744 is higher than it is at MTOW compared to the 342 343 345 and 346 all at MTOW.

+ the 744 will reach a minimum FL of FL300 at a MTOW takeoff.. (straight from the manual)

Leo
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 7):
The MD-11 program was launched on December 30, 1986, with orders and commitments for 92 aircraft from 12 airlines and leasing companies. Assembly of the MD-11 began on March 9, 1988, with the first flight of an MD-11F (freighter version) on March 10, 1990. FAA certification was achieved by November 8, 1990.

Stand to be corrected, but didn't this aircraft start out as a DC10?Everone seems to forget that Douglas was the one to start this breed
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rootsair
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:22 pm

Compare these 2 climb rates
MD11¨(KL MD11 AMS-BON-LIM)



A340-300(IB 343 MAD-SJO)



NO COMMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
ANITIX87
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:40 pm

I had no luck finding it, but there's a video somewhere online that I've seen where an LX 343 takes off. It rotates, and the plane lifts up ever so slightly, but the back wheels of the main bogeys stay on the ground for 7 or 8 seconds after it starts to lift up. The plane has such a hard time leaving the ground!

TIS
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 8):
Oh ok I see. HoweverI don't think 343's Swiss has are much different from the very first 343's

They are the most capable A343s - higher thrust rated and with the new EICAS screens that the A345/6 have, amongst other things. They are designeted E for Enhanced and I understand SAS have the new enhanced model, and the South African A343s currently out on wet lease to Jet Airways are also of the enhanced standard.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
1stfl94
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:11 pm

Did any MD-11ERs ever get built? The only versions I've ever noticed are the standard model, the combi and the freighter.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 19):
Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
Well, below FL10 it out climbs a 744.

Not quite.. the power to weight ratio on the 744 is higher than it is at MTOW compared to the 342 343 345 and 346 all at MTOW.

+ the 744 will reach a minimum FL of FL300 at a MTOW takeoff.. (straight from the manual)

Leo

I think Zeke will be interested in what you have to say. I understood that that was not the case and that indeed the A343 at MTOW will outclimb the 744 at MTOW to FL10, after which the 744 is better.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
pelican
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 19):

Not quite.. the power to weight ratio on the 744 is higher than it is at MTOW compared to the 342 343 345 and 346 all at MTOW.

+ the 744 will reach a minimum FL of FL300 at a MTOW takeoff.. (straight from the manual)

The power to weight ratio isn't everything. As far as I understand the wing plays also an importan role. And don't forget I wrote below FL10.

pelican
 
rootsair
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 23):
They are the most capable A343s - higher thrust rated and with the new EICAS screens that the A345/6 have,

Sorry it might be out of subject, but its still not worth a 777
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
CV990
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:37 pm

Hi!

RootsAir, believe it, there are some differences, specially inside.....I flew TP A343 and it's like comparing a Mercedes 220 from 1991 and another from 2003 ( I'm using 2003 because that's when LX started to receive their Airbuses...), the seats, lights, IFE.. it got really improved a lot. On performance I don't know if the 311 compared with the 313X have such a big difference, they both looked very confortable on flight. Those videos are absolutely great!!! I noticed something that I remember seeing in my MD11 flight, that line of vortex between the wingroot and the engine......looking to both videos is like an automatic car ( MD11 ) when you just need to press the speed pedal and a shift box car leaving in the 3rd. gear........
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
rootsair
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 28):
flew TP A343 and it's like comparing a Mercedes 220 from 1991 and another from 2003 (

Oh I suppose the interiors must be very different (only in IB it remains very boring with no IFE). I ment on the tecnhical point of view
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 27):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 23):
They are the most capable A343s - higher thrust rated and with the new EICAS screens that the A345/6 have,

Sorry it might be out of subject, but its still not worth a 777

Well see its funny because Swiss, Lufthansa, Virgin Atlantic, Jet Airways, Air Tahiti Nui, Gulf Air, Turkish, Olympic, Iberia, South African, Kingfisher, Sri Lankan, China Airlines, China Eastern, Air Jamaica, Caribbean Airlines, Air Namibia, TAP Air Portugal, Finnair etc all think differently.

None of them know anything about running an airline, so i'm sure they'd be very grateful of your insight in this matter.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 24):
Did any MD-11ERs ever get built?

Yes, five aircraft.

48743 / 48746 / 48753 / 48755 / 48758

Cheers.
 
gigneil
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 2):
The MD-11ER has a range of 7220nm while the basic A340-313X range is 7200nm, but it can be pushed to 7400nm with an auxiliary tank.

What? All A340-313Xs have the centre fuel tank.

Regular A340-313s have a 7200 nm.

There is no competition between the A340-313X and the M11. The A340 can complete missions further and with a higher payload on a regular basis.

The A340's fuel consumption is vastly superior, and I don't know why anyone would say otherwise. The A340-300 has better fuel burn than a 777.

NS
 
beeweel15
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 30):
Well see its funny because Swiss, Lufthansa, Virgin Atlantic, Jet Airways, Air Tahiti Nui, Gulf Air, Turkish, Olympic, Iberia, South African, Kingfisher, Sri Lankan, China Airlines, China Eastern, Air Jamaica, Caribbean Airlines, Air Namibia, TAP Air Portugal, Finnair etc all think differently.

Well if Boeing kept the MD11 line open several of the above airlines would have purchased the MD11. As for VS I remember when they bought the A340 series it was mentioned that they bought them to show support for the European Manufacturer and as a jab at BA who had a mostly american fleet.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 32):
What? All A340-313Xs have the centre fuel tank.

Yes they do but with the auxiliary tanks can go to 7400nm. Remember the word "auxiliary".

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 32):
The A340's fuel consumption is vastly superior, and I don't know why anyone would say otherwise. The A340-300 has better fuel burn than a 777.

Yes as the A340 flies Lower and Slower that the 777. And if the A340 is so much better howcome there is no stampeed to get it and as a matter of fact some carriers switched from the A340 to the 777.
 
warren747sp
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:14 am

But the MD-11 is such a gorgeous plane to look at not to mention the kick ass ride. The A343 by comparison is very plain and boring plane to look at or ride in not to mention the doubts it gives to passengers on takes offs. W
747SP
 
Adria
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 34):
But the MD-11 is such a gorgeous plane to look at not to mention the kick ass ride. The A343 by comparison is very plain and boring plane to look at or ride in not to mention the doubts it gives to passengers on takes offs. W

....yeah I guess an average passenger really can fell the difference between an A340 climb rate and the one from the MD-11.....but if that's so imagine how bad must they fell when they are in a 744.....
 
kappel
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 33):
Yes as the A340 flies Lower and Slower that the 777. And if the A340 is so much better howcome there is no stampeed to get it and as a matter of fact some carriers switched from the A340 to the 777.

Because the 777 can go farther, carry more people and more cargo, as it's bigger (and a lot heavier) than the a343. So while the a343 burns less fuel, the 772 is still more economical to operate. Same thing with the 763 vs a332. While the 763 burns less fuel, the a332 can go farther with more pax and more cargo. Hence, it's more economical to operate.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
A342
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 33):
Well if Boeing kept the MD11 line open several of the above airlines would have purchased the MD11.

Freighters - yes, passenger aircraft - if any at all, just with big discounts.

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 34):
But the MD-11 is such a gorgeous plane to look at not to mention the kick ass ride. The A343 by comparison is very plain and boring plane to look at or ride in not to mention the doubts it gives to passengers on takes offs.

That's only your opinion, and you know what ? The airlines frankly don't care.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
pelican
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 34):
not to mention the doubts it gives to passengers on takes offs.



Quoting Adria (Reply 35):
.but if that's so imagine how bad must they fell when they are in a 744.....

Exactly I never had doubts on a 744 take off, although it has an even slower initial climb than a 343.

pelican
 
MCOflyer
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:58 am

I like both so I can not complain. The A343 would make a good package freighter for airlines like UPS.

MCOflyer
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longhaul67
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:56 am

Why did Airbus decide to equip the A340 with so little thrust? Any ideas?

Its pretty apparent that one of the main features of a widebody is to have the power to climb comfortably, and the A340 doesn't seem to fit that description at all! And yet is has 4 engines....

I've flown quite a few times with both aircraft types but have never really taken notice of the huge difference in thrust. Strange as it may seem, my last take off in an MD-11 (RG at GIG) included an extremely long take off run. Runway 10/28 is 4000m/13000 ft long, but the plane seemed to use up the entire length of the runway, up to a point where one of the passengers (obviously not a frequent flyer) actually started lifting his arms up and down in despair before the aircraft finally lifted off.
 
gigneil
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 40):
Why did Airbus decide to equip the A340 with so little thrust? Any ideas?

Because its completely unnecessary.

NS
 
KPDX
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:08 am

View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
 
brendows
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 40):
Why did Airbus decide to equip the A340 with so little thrust? Any ideas?

It was supposed to be equipped with the PW Superfan, but this project was cancelled, and Airbus had to turn to CFM for a solution - a modified engine from the A320-project.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 40):
Its pretty apparent that one of the main features of a widebody is to have the power to climb comfortably, and the A340 doesn't seem to fit that description at all! And yet is has 4 engines....

I've flown quite a few times with both aircraft types but have never really taken notice of the huge difference in thrust. Strange as it may seem, my last take off in an MD-11 (RG at GIG) included an extremely long take off run. Runway 10/28 is 4000m/13000 ft long, but the plane seemed to use up the entire length of the runway,

The A340 is no sports car, but that's not the point of modern WBs - they have to be fuel efficient, and an aircraft might use the full length of the runway because of that. Taking off from a much shorter distance would require more thrust -> more fuel burn and shorter engine life.
The A340 is known to be a slow climber, but as Gigneil says, it doesn't have more thrust...

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 41):
Because its completely unnecessary.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 37):
Freighters - yes, passenger aircraft - if any at all, just with big discounts.

some of those airlines Finnair in particular have had untill recently used the MD-11 exclusively, and I bet if boeing was still making them they would have bought them. I read somewhere that the Finnair A340 was purchased as a interm airplane while they wait for the A350. So you never know what airlines can do with airplanes that are seemingly obselet
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md80fanatic
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:50 am

Oh, how I love these comparison threads. You guys and gals have to dig pretty deep to put down the MD11. Looks, performance, cockpit visibility, payload versatility.....it's got it all. The only thing it doesn't have is support from the company who now owns the design. The only way to kill an MD is to buy the company and cancel the product.

Nevertheless, I still (and always will) enjoy watching A and B cheerleaders cringe when they see one.  Wink
 
gigneil
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 33):
Yes they do but with the auxiliary tanks can go to 7400nm. Remember the word "auxiliary".

I am sorry but unless someone can produce documentation there is no auxiliary tank feature for the A340-300.

NS
 
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zeke
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:06 am

I generally fly the 343 with an assume outside temperature of about 55 degrees and 20% derate climb on all sectors, meaning I have about the effective thrust of 3 engines at full thrust.

The name of the game is efficiency, not time or speed records.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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zeke
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 46):
I am sorry but unless someone can produce documentation there is no auxiliary tank feature for the A340-300.

http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S.../html/acrobat/fast_35_act_p2_5.pdf
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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LTU932
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RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 43):
It was supposed to be equipped with the PW Superfan

Wasn't it IAE which proposed the Superfan but later decided to cancel the project?

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