Evan767
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"On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:09 am

This is something that has really annoyed me. I have always thought the correct term for announcing you are on your final is "on final". Now, why do people say "on finals". There is surely only ONE final so why is it plural? Which term is the correct usage?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
KELPkid
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:17 am

Thanks for bringing up one of my pet peeves with this site.

It is ON FINAL

Finals are what you stress over the last week of the term in college...  mischievous 
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pilotpip
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:36 am

This is a singular, not a plural. You can't be on two Finals, only FINAL.
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ConjureMe
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:03 am

I have started noticing a lot of this terminology used here on A.net. For example, on a photo caption:

"CO 757 on short FINALS for runway..."

This always bothered me and I was starting to think that I was the one in the wrong...thanks for reassuring me!

Maybe people are thinking finals as in "final landing preparations" (tires, trailing edge, etc) instead of final as in the final segment of an approach?
Never let the plane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes ago.
 
Evan767
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:06 am

Good to hear I am not the only one how there who gets ticked by this!
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 3):

"CO 757 on short FINALS for runway..."

Also, why does everyone like to say "short" finals? Isn't it just short if the last leg is short (with a late turn-in)?
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Evan767
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Also, why does everyone like to say "short" finals? Isn't it just short if the last leg is short (with a late turn-in)?

A final always turns into a short final a distance from the runway. I would say maybe 1-2 miles out it turns into a short final, but I am no expert.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:19 am

Final is used in the U.S. I find it that other countries use finals. Final is the last stage of the traffic pattern. There is upwind, crosswind, downwind, and final. I have no idea when people started using finals for the final approach but there you go.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:37 am

While the majority in this thread seem to agree that it should be FINAL and not finals, this topic has popped up a few times over the years and it has actually been debated. It has been a pet peeve of mine as well, but there are many, MANY people that firmly believe "finals" is proper and will go through great lengths to defend it. So, I dunno...I prefer final. It's how I learned it, and it just sounds correct to me. To each their own I suppose.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Evan767
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 8):
MANY people that firmly believe "finals" is proper and will go through great lengths to defend it

Maybe they should learn some grammar!
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
Mir
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
have always thought the correct term for announcing you are on your final is "on final". Now, why do people say "on finals".

It's "final" in the US. However, other countries sometimes use "finals".

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 6):
I would say maybe 1-2 miles out it turns into a short final, but I am no expert.

In my mind, anything under a 1/2 mile final is short. Maybe one can stretch the definition to a mile, but nothing over that.

-Mir
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320tech
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:08 pm

Since "final" is short for "final approach", anyone who defends "finals" is on thin ice.

"Short final" is used to help other pilots spot you, just like saying "late downwind". It's not official, but if you say you're on short final, I'll look near the threshold, not a mile away.
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cancidas
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:45 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 7):
Final is used in the U.S. I find it that other countries use finals. Final is the last stage of the traffic pattern. There is upwind, crosswind, downwind, and final. I have no idea when people started using finals for the final approach but there you go.

you forgot base.
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copter808
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:28 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
Thanks for bringing up one of my pet peeves with this site.

It is ON FINAL

Finals are what you stress over the last week of the term in college...

This was my EXACT thought when I read the thread title!!
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:44 pm

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 12):
you forgot base.

Thanks..
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:11 pm

I find that alot of the Europeans use "finals" on this site. I finally gave up twitching about it after noticing the consistency in its use by our buddies across the pond. I'm sure it has to do with the quirks of english english as compared to american english. Same language... but very different in many regards with the slang usage.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 15):
I find that alot of the Europeans use "finals" on this site

Just like "aircrafts."

Mark
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IAHFLYR
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:29 pm

You don't hear "contact the finalS controller" do you? Or, "finalS monitor"

But according to George Carlin it is your "FINAL APPROACH"......  laughing 
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Goldenshield
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:53 pm

This is one my aviation pet peeves.

Let's look at this grammatically:

final/finals

"That aircraft is on it's final approach."/"That aircraft is on it's finals approach."

Which is more pleasing to the ear?

Now, I would accept the word "finals" if it was known that that very aircraft had sisters in other, seperate dimensions that were known to mirror that of our own. Until those other dimensions are known to exist and can be proven, I will believe that there is only one, and that that single aircraft is completing only one final approach to the runway.

[Edited 2007-02-03 15:58:19]
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zeke
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:37 am

Amusing people discussing non ICAO phraseology, no legs of the circuit are defined in Annex 10, so they fall under local procedures, therefore have no standard phraseology.

However as a general rule, "on" is not used in RT procedures, it is considered superfluous and unnecessary.

ABC FINAL, or ABC FINAL RW 34R is sufficient, no need for the ON in the middle.
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David L
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 7):
Final is the last stage of the traffic pattern. There is upwind, crosswind, downwind, and final



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 16):
Just like "aircrafts."

I think that's a different thing, brought about by "aircraft" not having the usual plural form. There's nothing wrong with the word "finals", only with when it's used.  Smile
 
peterpuck
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:15 pm

Do you guy's know what a "fanny" is? It's one thing in one place, totally different in another. Sometimes a can of coke is a "pop" sometimes it's a "soda". Who cares, as long as you get the meaning at the time.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:35 pm

There are four legs to a traffic pattern: upwind, crosswind, downwind and final. That is it.

How come the "finals" nitwits aren't also saying "downwinds"? You can be very sure of one thing: anybody who says "finals" is not a pilot of any kind. In fact, they have never darkened the doors of ground school. I don't care if you are talking about the US or Europe or Transylvania.

"Finals" makes as much sense as saying that you are pulling into your "driveways" in your car.

"Short final" means that if you look for the traffic near the approach end of the runway, and below you, you will see it.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:31 pm

Aren't I the idiot? The four legs of atraffic pattern are upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and final. My ex-WWII instructor would be mortified. Then, again, I always used to like rolling downwind direct to final.
 
Evan767
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 22):

Well said.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
flyf15
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 23):
The four legs of atraffic pattern are upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and final

Hey man, I think thats 5.  Smile
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:49 pm

Hey man, I think thats 5.

Upwind, being the takeoff, isn't usually considered. Upwind can result in a straight out departure or a turn to a vector without following a traffic pattern.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 26):
Upwind, being the takeoff, isn't usually considered

Not really, the upwind is an important part of the pattern. Especially for go arounds and pattern entry. Have you ever heard of the tower give the instruction of "fly the the upwind, cross midfield and enter the downwind?"
 
Spruit
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 15):
I find that alot of the Europeans use "finals" on this site.

Then those "Europeans" have never flown or taken an RT exam, in aviation terms it's "Final" end of discussion  Smile (Excuse the pun)

Spru!
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vzlet
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting Spruit (Reply 28):
in aviation terms it's "Final"

But nonetheless, a Google search on "finals AAIB", "finals CAA", "finals GATCO", etc. will generate plenty of results.
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Ferret
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:37 am

Wow, I'm glad to hear others pick on this!

Its interesting to me that so far, there really hasn't been anyone defending 'Finals'. The succinct arguments made so far seem to shut them down before they can even start typing...
Murphy lives here.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting Ferret (Reply 30):
Its interesting to me that so far, there really hasn't been anyone defending 'Finals'. The succinct arguments made so far seem to shut them down before they can even start typing...

If this discussion had opened up in the Civ Av forum, we would probably see more people defending their use of "finals".
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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vzlet
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Ferret (Reply 30):
Its interesting to me that so far, there really hasn't been anyone defending 'Finals'. The succinct arguments made so far seem to shut them down before they can even start typing...

Well, the intent of my post (#29) was to show that in Europe "finals" is commonly used and accepted. I'd consider it a cultural difference and perhaps comparable to the way many (most?) Americans use the term "daylight savings time".
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
David L
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Vzlet (Reply 32):
comparable to the way many (most?) Americans use the term "daylight savings time"

or "New Years" when we say "New Year".  Smile
 
bond007
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:16 am

...or ... "Wimbleton"  Smile


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SkepticAll
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:27 pm

I don't know what the big deal is here!

Ya'll haven't seen aircrafts on finals before?

LOL..........sorry, couldn't resist.

Another pet peeve of mine is when a controller or pilot for that matter prefaces an advisory or other remark with the phrase "be advised". Well duh!......do you really need to warn me that you are fixing to tell me something? And seeing as you just told me something, should I consider myself advised without being told so? Or does being advised.............oh hell, forget it!
 
Evan767
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting David L (Reply 33):
or "New Years" when we say "New Year".

No, Americans only say New Years when referring to New Year's day. In which New Years is being described as possessive. We also say, "Happy New Year", you won't hear us saying "Happy New Years!"
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
David L
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 36):
Americans only say New Years when referring to New Year's day.

That's what I was referring to. I mean, do you refer to "Easters" or "Thanksgivings"? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just stealing some of the logic above. I'm quite prepared to accept that "final" in the context of this thread is correct.  Smile

I don't recall hearing "finals" in use on my scanner over here. I tend to agree with those posters who suggested "finals" is used by non-aviation people.
 
Evan767
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 37):
That's what I was referring to. I mean, do you refer to "Easters" or "Thanksgivings"? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just stealing some of the logic above. I'm quite prepared to accept that "final" in the context of this thread is correct.

So you're telling me you guys say, "What are you doing New Year Day?"
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
David L
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 38):
So you're telling me you guys say, "What are you doing New Year Day?"

No, in the same way you guys don't say "What are you doing on Easter's"? We say "What are you doing on New Year's Day" and "What are you doing at New Year". Once again, I was just using some of the logic above.  Smile
 
Boston92
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 36):
you won't hear us saying "Happy New Years!"

No, I have heard Happy New YearS, more than Happy New Year. The original example was valid in comparing this to Final and Finals.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 40):
No, I have heard Happy New YearS, more than Happy New Year.

That may be the case BUT "Happy New YearS" implies New Year's (Day) never just the plural. Just as "turning FINAL" is not plural. I guess you could ask "How many finals have you flown in your life?"
 
David L
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 40):
No, I have heard Happy New YearS, more than Happy New Year.

That was my suspicion but I didn't want to escalate the issue.  Smile

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 41):
That may be the case BUT "Happy New YearS" implies New Year's (Day) never just the plural.

Of course. I was only addressing the "language" differences brought up by others. I'm not suggesting it justifies the use of "finals".  hissyfit   biggrin 
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
It's "final" in the US. However, other countries sometimes use "finals".

No it is only "Final" in ICAO terminalogy. I have always been repulsed by "finals" since it is only low-end flying club slang and not appropriate for a professional pilot or a serious aviation buff.


In the mean time the British are correct in saying "Maths" instead of Math as in the US. The full word is "Mathmatics" so it is more descriptive.

I lived in South Kensington for a while and worked in W2 and I do love British English, but "finals" is just wrong.

[Edited 2007-03-07 03:21:33]
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
KELPkid
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:39 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 43):
No it is only "Final" in ICAO terminalogy. I have always been repulsed by "finals" since it is only low-end flying club slang and not appropriate for a professional pilot or a serious aviation buff.

You paid $25 just to say that?  Smile

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SansVGs
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:19 pm

I was landing in Florida last Fall, and heard a person with an English accent calling "finals" on the radio. I immediately thought--"this is a person who is from the main forum on A.net and learning to fly." My "guard" went way up--as this is so not standard phrasology.

No "diss" on the English--went to school there; total Anglophile.
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Evan767
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 44):
You paid $25 just to say that?

Welcome to airliners.net!

I'll answer for him. If it takes that much to get a point across, then yes! I am glad my thread is making a difference in the aviation community and hopefully others will begin to understand.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
OPNLguy
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
Thanks for bringing up one of my pet peeves with this site.



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 4):
Good to hear I am not the only one how there who gets ticked by this!

Mine also...

Over here, it's "final" as in "final approach segment". The only time I've ever heard the plural form "finals" used was by ATC at DFW one day. For those unaware, DFW has 5 runways oriented N-S, and I heard DFW tower clear a medivac helicopter on the NNW side of the airport to head due east, and he was told to "expedite across the finals", "finals" in this case being the final approach segments of the 5 N-S oriented runways.

Again, over here, "final" is used in the context of a 1-to-1 relationship between an aircraft on approach, and the runway (singular) it intends to land on.

Not saying that "finals" isn't the way it's done elsewhere, but just explaining why it's not done here....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SansVGs
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:36 am

OPNLguy,

Good point. I understand what you are saying. However, if one were on an aviation radio announcing position as "Finals" everyone else on the freq would wonder WHAT runway they were on "Finals" for---endangering a mid-air. The term is completely amateurish and should not be used. Would you expect to hear one of your birds going into Corpus calling "Finals?" May I suggest that you have introduced an "Exception that proves the rule."

Perhaps when WN starts going into DFW they can call "Finals" for kicks Smile Best...
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: "On Final" Or "On Finals"?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 48):
However, if one were on an aviation radio announcing position as "Finals" everyone else on the freq would wonder WHAT runway they were on "Finals" for---endangering a mid-air.

..or, they might wonder how you planned to approach/land on two different runways at the same time...  Wink

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 48):
The term is completely amateurish and should not be used.

..if you're talking about "finals" as used by an aircraft (singular) on approach to a runway (singular) here in the USA, I agree with you.

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 48):
Would you expect to hear one of your birds going into Corpus calling "Finals?"

No, why on earth would I? Here in the US, it's "final"....

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 48):
May I suggest that you have introduced an "Exception that proves the rule."

...if you mean the plural "finals" used by ATC or someone other than the pilot of an aircraft (singular) on approach to a runway (singular), you're correct.

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 48):
Perhaps when WN starts going into DFW they can call "Finals" for kicks

Again, why on earth would we? (..and that goes double for us flying scheduled service into DFW...)  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.

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