BA787
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757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:55 pm

Apologies if this has been discussed before but it had not shown on the search function.


Today's edition of the Sunday Express contains an article expressing a danger in the above aircraft as some harmful toxins from the jet fumes leak into the aircraft cabins and cockpits.

Apparently members of the crew have been reporting headaches and nausea after the exposure to this fumes, and there have been apparently been hundreds of these incidents, mainly with these types of aircraft.

One pilot od the BAe 146 said there was no question of oil leaking through the oil seals and contaminating the cabin " It happens all the time, pilots just accept it as normal. Evidence from one LCC (I presume either flyBe or BAConnect) stated that between January and September 2006 there were 35 "fume events"

Is there any truth in all this, and is it as common and dangerous as this tabloid sheet is making out?

If this doesn't belong on this forum, MODs move it to Civil, but I thought I might get a more intelligent answer here
 
troubleshooter
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:09 am

All BAe146 I´ve worked on smell terrible when using APU bleed for air conditioning. Especially during preparation for the first flight of the day. Operators used different procedures to handle this:
- manual temp regulation with a low duct temperature (around 30° C) to prevent possible oil fumes
- manual temp regulation with high duct temperatures (around 80°C) to "burn" all possible oil in the duct system.

I know about an investigation report from BAe Systems and the british CAA about this problem. But as I did´nt put my hands on that nice ship for a couple of years now, things may have changed. Hope some guys here with more current experience can shed some light.

By the way, we´ve had some issues of oil smell during pack operation on the EMB145 as well during the past years...
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
BA787
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:45 am

Thanks, so its not just pres hype then, how dangerous is it?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:59 pm

There has been a lot of investigation into this. There was a big thread on pprune last year with links to all the sources.
On the B757 it is a known problem, but it is just a smell. Scientific research has proved that the amount of oil in the air is so low that it is not harmful, but a couple of BA pilots think it is and write it up in the log all the time so it causes a lot of problems.
In the early days of jet engines, all aircraft smelled oil in the cabin, especially when you turned on the bleeds, but nowadays it is not so common as seal technology has improved.
The HS 146 did have problems, I have read the reports from Australia and Sweden on it, but they are still flying.
 
Rick767
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 3):
On the B757 it is a known problem, but it is just a smell

Just a smell? Excerpt from report on incident to G-CPET (10th March 2006):

"After starting both engines, the co-pilot reported that he could smell fumes and discussed the matter with the commander. After about two minutes of taxiing, the co‑pilot started to feel light-headed, euphoric and
unwell, the commander also felt light-headed and the aircraft was halted on the taxiway to see if the situation improved. Both flight crew members continued to feel abnormal - the co-pilot considered himself partially
incapacitated – but the cabin staff appeared unaffected.

"Both engines were shut down as the crew no longer felt fit to taxi the aircraft and it was towed back to the stand. During the tow, the co-pilot donned his oxygen mask....."


Source: AAIB Report
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
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zeke
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:54 pm

from http://ashsd.afacwa.org/docs/AustSen.pdf

"2.26 There have been reports of cabin air fumes on board Australian BAe 146
aircraft since at least 1985. In 1982 the United States Federal Aviation Authority and National Transport Safety Bureau conducted tests on the BAe 146. Ansett told the Committee its initial reported fume occurrence was in 1991, when an East West Airlines crew first reported odours on the BAe 146 series 300 aircraft. East West Airlines later became part of Ansett Australia.27

2.27 The ATSB told the Committee that between 1991 and 1 November 1999,
when the Bureau gave evidence, 93 occurrences of fumes in aircraft had been
reported.

2.28 These occurrences:
… all fall into the general description of smoke, fumes or fire within the
cabin or cockpit of an aircraft from whatever source. Those occurrences
could be a simple as the spillage of food in a galley causing a fire to failure
of an electronic components causing fumes to this particular occurrence -
that is, the ingress of fumes from a failed seal within an engine - to multiple
reports of ‘nothing found’ on investigation by the operator.28

2.29 The ATSB’s only substantial investigation of fumes leaking into the cabin of a BAe 146 arose from an incident where the pilot of a National Jet Systems freight plane became incapacitated after being exposed to fumes in the cockpit while descending into Melbourne Airport in 1997. The ATSB which was then the Bureau of Air Safety (BASI) conducted an extensive inquiry of events of a similar nature and reported that the incidents were “far from rare”.29"
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
turkee
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:16 pm

If you do searches for aviation safety incidents on http://www.atsb.gov.au you will find a GREAT number deal with fumes in the cockpit/cabin for 146s.

It is very common.
 
SK A340
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:47 pm

I've heard that the A340 had similar problems. Some seats in SK's A340's are more affected than others, but I can't find the article I red that described this.

/Micke
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Rick767 (Reply 4):
Just a smell? Excerpt from report on incident to G-CPET (10th March 2006):

And BA did no remedial action, and the aircraft continued in service.
90pc of all oil smell reports on BA B757 come from ONE Captain.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
.
90pc of all oil smell reports on BA B757 come from ONE Captain

Interesting Stats.
Were these fitted with the RB211-535C Engines.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Were these fitted with the RB211-535C Engines

No 535E engines . We sold all our C engines to DHL (and you)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 10):
No 535E engines

Thanks.
Yeah Very Few -Cs around these days.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Finlander
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:27 am

Hello.

Bad "oil smell" can also come from burnt de-icing fluid and it smells really bad.
In case of Bae146/avro there should also be catalytic converter, in apu bleed duct, to prevent fumes.

Always have to remember to wait atleast 2 min before switching apu air on after apu start.

The main problem could be the oil leaking engine seal, but it comes to awareness when you use APU. Apu gives more hotter air to the bleed ducts as you know.
 
BA787
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:48 am

Thanks for the response in this thread, very interesting reading
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting Finlander (Reply 12):
In case of Bae146/avro there should also be catalytic converter,

Isn't that for an Anti Ozone intake purpose.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
troubleshooter
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:42 am

Found one interesting link concerning this topic:
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet.../Cabin_Safety/BALPAsmellquery.html
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
cftoa
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:26 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the CRJ have a similar problem?
I flew Jazz 8831 last week on a CRJ-705, and sat in seat 27 A, which is right beside engine #1.
during the startup sequence, I smelt a slight bit of emmision, which seemed to fade away after a minute.
Is this a similar problem to that of the BAe-146 and 752?

Cheers.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 16):
I smelt a slight bit of emmision, which seemed to fade away after a minute.

Was it Oil or Fuel.Probably from the Bleed Air used for Air Conditioning.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cftoa
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Was it Oil or Fuel.Probably from the Bleed Air used for Air Conditioning.

Thats what I figured it was. I smelt it from the air conditioning vent, and I think it was fuel. Thanks for your help Mel, You always have an answer  Smile

Cheers.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:47 pm

Unburned Fuel Fumes.......How was the reaction of the other Pax.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
access-air
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:00 am

The only time I ever smelled something bad from the ducts of a BAe 146-300 was in 1991 on an Air Wisconsin, N611AW....It smelled like someone puked into the ducts......and the next time I flew on that same plane in 1993...The same smell still came out of the ducts. Either they couldn't get rid of the smell or someone repuked in the ducts....

As for fuel smells in the cabin, I would assume that pretty much all airplanes have some sort of seepage of their own exhaust back into the cabin in one way or another or at some point.

Access-Air
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cftoa
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Unburned Fuel Fumes.......How was the reaction of the other Pax.
regds

a couple of the pax looked around, including the senior F/A. No other problems during the flight though.

Cheers.
 
EI321
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
Today's edition of the Sunday Express contains an article expressing a danger in the above aircraft as some harmful toxins from the jet fumes leak into the aircraft cabins and cockpits.

Ive heard that the WX 146s are notoirius for having smells of fumes inside the cabins.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 20):
....It smelled like someone puked into the ducts.

Odd description.Would that be a Fuel or Oil fume smell.

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 21):
a couple of the pax looked around, including the senior F/A

Probably all Pax would look towards the FAs to see their reaction at suc times  Smile

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
access-air
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 20):
....It smelled like someone puked into the ducts.

Odd description.Would that be a Fuel or Oil fume smell.

I assumed it was PUKE......Ive puked a few times in my life and I know what that smells like....It just seemed to be caught in the ducting....maybe in the filters....Never considered it to be fuel or oil.....
As for fuel or oil smells coming thru ducts, I just thought it was normal....I mean with all the RAM air that the air cycling machine gets from the engines, well....any slight smells wouldnt surprise me......

In the winter you probabaly get a smell from the heating elements as they are put into service on planes. Everything has its old aroma.....People just freak out over nothing.....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
access-air
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 24):
I mean with all the RAM air

I mean Bleed Air....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
troubleshooter
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 24):
I assumed it was PUKE......Ive puked a few times in my life and I know what that smells like....It just seemed to be caught in the ducting....maybe in the filters....Never considered it to be fuel or oil.....

It is not that easy!! Have you ever worked on the "146"? Then you would know for sure that this type of smell has nothing to do with puke.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 24):
As for fuel or oil smells coming thru ducts, I just thought it was normal....I mean with all the RAM air that the air cycling machine gets from the engines, well....any slight smells wouldnt surprise me......

Light smell of fuel and/or oil or de-icing fluids are considered to be normal in certain situations, but we had some events which are out of the normal range with visible smoke in the cabin with running APU supplying bleed air to the air conditioning system.
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:12 pm

The B752 RB211-535 Engines if Serviced with Oil in the Higher range can cause Oil fumes in the Cockpit.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
goinv
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:32 pm

A BAe 146 runs the thrice daily service between Inverness and Gatwick.

A couple of years ago there was an article, in the local paper, about fumes in the cockpit of this particular BAe 146. The paper got a BA spokesperson to comment on the safety of the flights that they operated.

The spokesperson quoted that it is a known fact that fumes are detected on the flightdeck of these aircraft above 26000 ft. They also commented that, because of this, the plane was restricted to operate at, or below, this altitude.

It was obviously an acceptable answer as nothing else was ever reported by the paper. It's a shame they didn't go to Inverness Airport with an airband radio and hear almost every single one of these flight cleeared to FL290 !
Be who you are, The world was made to measure for your smile. So Smile.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Goinv (Reply 28):
The spokesperson quoted that it is a known fact that fumes are detected on the flightdeck of these aircraft above 26000 ft. They also commented that, because of this, the plane was restricted to operate at, or below, this altitude.

Whats the Technical Explanation given about FL260 & the Aircraft.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
goinv
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Whats the Technical Explanation given about FL260 & the Aircraft

sorry - this was a few years ago and I can't remember
Be who you are, The world was made to measure for your smile. So Smile.
 
doug_or
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 24):
In the winter you probabaly get a smell from the heating elements as they are put into service on planes. Everything has its old aroma.....People just freak out over nothing.....

Access-Air

The heating elements in an airliner are called the engines....  Smile

Instead of using electrical elements they use the increase in heat that comes with the compression of gas.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?

Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting Goinv (Reply 30):
sorry - this was a few years ago and I can't remember

Anyway You could Find out.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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