bmacleod
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B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:51 am

The Boeing website says that the B777-300ER and B777LR burns 20-25% per seat-mile less than the A345 and A346 respectively, but is there a chart that calculates the fuel cost savings over the A340. Let's use $60 crude as a gauge.
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:33 am

Dear god man! Do you know what you're starting? The fabric of space-time itself could tear!

I do not know if there is such a chart, but if the Boeing website compares a Boeing product favorably with an Airbus product, I would pour a few cups of Kosher Salt over the monitor before reading.



[ ritual bashing of this kind of statement ]

Fuel burn depends very much on the mission.

Fuel, while an important factor, is only one factor in the purchase decision. Even with fuel costs being higher (assuming it is so), the 345/346 may still be a better purchase due to:
- Delivery time availability.
- Leasing rates.
- Purchase price.
- Price of training.
- Commonality.
- Price of maintenance.
- Opinions of A.nutters.

[ /ritual bashing of this kind of statement ]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
N231YE
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
The Boeing website says that the B777-300ER and B777LR burns 20-25% per seat-mile less than the A345 and A346 respectively

Anybody trying to sell a product over their competitor will make their product seem better, based on one or a few facts alone, just as Starlionblue has pointed out.
 
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Stitch
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:14 am

Any such chart would be theoretical in nature since neither plane would have identical seating as a 777 is wider then an A340 so it can hold one more Business Class and Economy Class seat per row with identical seat widths. So with identical row-counts, a 777 will hold more seats which lowers it's fuel-burn per seat even if both planes burned identical amounts of fuel on a mission profile (since you are distributing that cost over more seats on the 777).

And then you have to factor in all of the variables Starlionblue noted...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Any such chart would be theoretical in nature since neither plane would have identical seating as a 777 is wider then an A340 so it can hold one more Business Class and Economy Class seat per row with identical seat widths. So with identical row-counts, a 777 will hold more seats which lowers it's fuel-burn per seat even if both planes burned identical amounts of fuel on a mission profile (since you are distributing that cost over more seats on the 777).

Very true. Boeing is "fairly" comparing seat mile cost. However, you can easily skew the numbers since larger aircraft (with more seats) tend to have lower seat mile costs. A correct comparison would be seat mile cost given the same number of seats. But even doing it that way cargo capability, quite a significant factor, is being completely ignored.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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zeke
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
The Boeing website says that the B777-300ER and B777LR burns 20-25% per seat-mile less than the A345 and A346 respectively, but is there a chart that calculates the fuel cost savings over the A340.

Have a look at http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf, it might be of some assistance.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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lightsaber
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Dear god man! Do you know what you're starting? The fabric of space-time itself could tear!

 rotfl 

a.net having unfriendly A vs. B? Never... Couldn't possibly happen.  Wink

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Arniepie
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:18 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):

Have a look at http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf, it might be of some assistance.

Could you plz give an idea about the content because the link doesn't work for me?

Thx in advance
[edit post]
 
brendows
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 7):

Could you plz give an idea about the content because the link doesn't work for me?

Remove the comma at the end of the link, then it works  Smile
Like this:
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf
 
zarniwoop
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 8):
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf

Interesting chart... I don't have any idea of it's accuracy but it makes more sense if you add an extra column for cost/seat, I will add it below for some selected models:

plane / Total operating cost per hour / Number of seats / Cost per seat per hour

(Number of seats is typical 3 class capacity as per a.net plane info)

B777-200 / $4,149 / 305 / $13.60
B747-400 / $6,761 / 416 / $16.25
MD11 / $4,615 / 298 / $15.48
A330-200 / $3,701 / 256 / $14.45
A340-300 / $4,073 / 303 / $13.44
A340-600 / $4,850 / 316 / $15.34

I apologise in advance for any mis-calucations or inaccuracy, just thought it would be an interesting comparison.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
Have a look at http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf, it might be of some assistance.

How can this chart be showing actual A346 operating costs for Summer 2000 when the airplane did not EIS until 2002?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Arniepie
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RE: B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 10):
How can this chart be showing actual A346 operating costs for Summer 2000 when the airplane did not EIS until 2002?

Also there seems something very odd if you compare the 737-800 with the 700,
700 more expensive to operate and higher fuel burn than the 800, I don't think that can be true.

BTW thx Brendows , didn't see that comma.
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