Blackbird
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Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:23 am

I'm wondering if it's possible with modern day technology to operate large jet-powered seaplanes and flying boats? It would allow far larger airplane designs since there wouldn't be as many restrictions on footprint pressure, and airplane dimensions.

Alternatively, operating within standard footprint pressure and runway size requirements, it could be fitted with retractable gears, and be able to land on water in the gears up configuration producing an 'amphibious' design. The Russians built such a type of design with high-mounted jet-engines that worked apparently with some degree of success. Such an amphibious design could operate out of every single runway that a regular jet-plane could operate out of AND could operate in the water. It could open up a whole new range of places to operate out of, including the Carribean and such.

The biggest issue that I see would be night-landings. The best idea I've thought of is using some type of radar-altimeter design that could determine the height of the swells and waves.

Andrea K
 
MDorBust
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:43 am

There are four major obstacles that need to be overcome:

1) Calm water. Seaplanes need calm water to operate in. Although common in inland lakes, calm water is not very common anywhere else. Relatively calm winds that don't even bother runway operations makes water choppy. You need sheltered harbors to operate large sea planes out of... or good luck regarding the weather.

2) Take-off speed. Getting a Goose or Cessna off water at 65 knots is one thing. Getting a large jet up to 155 knots is another. Water creates much more drag then tires do. Any large jet would need a huge surplus of power to get up to take off sped on water.

3) Safety. Landing and taking off on water is dangerous. Very dangerous. Screw up a landing and plant a wheel hard on the runway and you'll most likely get away with it. Plant a pontoon hard in water and you'll spin the plane around that wing. Not a good thought at 155.

4) Availability. Most large cities don't have large land-able bodies of water nearby that are conspicuously empty of sea traffic. Neither Boeing nor Airbus would be likely to develop a new transport category aircraft for such a narrow market.
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Starglider
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:59 am

Interesting topic.

In the late 1950s a large jet powered seaplane was flown and saw limited operational service. It was the Martin P6M Seamaster:

Big version: Width: 481 Height: 200 File size: 11kb
Martin P6M Seamaster

Big version: Width: 684 Height: 336 File size: 22kb
Martin Seamaster


They were effectively seagoing B-52s, having a small crew of four and a gross take-off weight of 160,000 lbs (72,575 kgs). The technology involved in its design was the latest known and included four Pratt & Whitney J75-P-2 turbojet engines of 17,500 lbs (7,938 kgs) thrust mounted on top of a highly swept shoulder-mounted drooped wing which had a span of 100 ft (30.48 m).

The tactical concept behind the Seamaster was that it could operate in small numbers and be refueled and rearmed by submarines or other small naval craft. It was undoubtedly the most sophisticated flying boat ever constructed.


And here is something that might interest you regarding development of a six-engined hull-type supersonic seaplane:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...asa.gov/19930090160_1993090160.pdf


Starglider
 
atct
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:32 pm

Check out the Russians,
Theyre the ones that experimented with Jet powered sea planes alot. (not to mention "ground effect" flyers aka Ekronaplans).

Anywho as one who's flown a floatplane (C185) and a seaplane (G-44 Widgeon) I can say that yes, screwing up a landing on floats, it'll ruin your day. Regarding a hulled aircraft, its also wise to be soft on the landing, but Its more forgiveable.

Also, look into the Boeing 314's of the 30's. Stick some jets on there and ya might have an idea, but along with floats/hulls come ALOT of drag, not only on the surface of the water but also inflight.

ATCT
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L-188
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:33 pm

Honestly I would never put jets on a flying boat.

Turboprops are much more appropriate for the operating range in questions.


Can you imagine the turbulence comming off a stepped boat hull at 350Kts flight cruise?
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FredT
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:03 pm

Not to mention the weight penalty of going to a hull/floats from a landing gear.

I'm afraid that the concept will not float in this day and age.  Wink
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pelican
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obsta

Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
It was undoubtedly the most sophisticated flying boat ever constructed.

I think the Russians would disagree.
The Beriev Be-200ChS is a modern state of the art jet powered seaplane.


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pelican
 
Starglider
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 6):
think the Russians would disagree.
The Beriev Be-200ChS is a modern state of the art jet powered seaplane.

You are correct. I should have said . . .the most sophisticated flying boat ever constructed until that moment.



Starglider
 
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
And here is something that might interest you regarding development of a six-engined hull-type supersonic seaplane:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...asa.gov/19930090160_1993090160.pdf


Starglider

Those are some interesting pictures Starglider. For those who haven't looked yet just scroll all the way down, they show the water tests on a scaled model of the plane.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:27 am

In addition to the drag problems of a boat hull mentioned above, salt water spray ingestion does not enhance engine life.
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Scooter01
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
(What Are The Obstacle)

Any submerged log at or just below the surface might ruin the day  

S

[Edited 2007-02-18 00:06:58]
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Alessandro
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:51 am

So are gyroscopes used on modern seaplanes, could it be helpfull to improve handling on water?
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Alessandro
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:27 am

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
atct
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:55 pm



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 10):
Any submerged log at or just below the surface might ruin the day

The thing that scares the bejeezus outta every seaplane/floatplane pilot!

Regarding Beriev, they also make a nifty little seaplane twin thats roughly the same cost as a new Baron, a larger aircraft, and is about as fast.

ATCT
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2H4
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RE: Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:03 am



Quoting FredT (Reply 5):
I'm afraid that the concept won't float in this day and age

Well, the key would be to take off against the current of a large, fast-moving river to simulate a conveyor belt.  duck 

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